- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
This was an interesting article that came up on the web. I joined the LDS church when I was a young adult.
None of these questions ever occurred to me.
Especially:
. Inclusivity & Diversity
. Financial Transparency
The only questions emphasized had to do with:
. Was Joseph Smith a Prophet?
. Is the BOM true?
Is it possible that members are becoming more sophisticated about what they are looking for & going
to other faiths & churches to find more answers to their questions than I did?
I read a recent statement from Elder Cook that the church experienced more convert baptisms in the 12 month period ending June 30th than the church has seen in the last 25 years. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-of-jesus-christ-record-global-growth I share that because I was going to say that I don’t know whether a one true church is what people are looking for in the 21st century but maybe they are?
It’s hard to tell. People and cultures aren’t homogeneous. We’ve seen baptisms boom and disappear in Europe, boom and wane in the USA, boom and slow down in South America, and I think we’re seeing a boom period in Africa right now. I don’t know whether that boom reflects something the church offers that appeals to Africans in particular or whether the boom is just a byproduct of initial gains in an untapped market.
The two countries in Africa with the most members are Nigeria and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. The church does have the history of the priesthood ban to contend with in Africa but polygamy is still very much a thing in Africa and homosexuality is illegal in many African countries. For example, in Nigeria you can be arrested and put in prison for gay relationships and there are estimates that up to one third of women are in polygamous relationships. I only bring that up because two subjects that are often seen as strikes against the church in the USA are closer to the cultural norms in many countries in Africa.
I’ve veered far away from the subject. Coming back…
Minyan Man wrote:
The only questions emphasized had to do with:. Was Joseph Smith a Prophet?
. Is the BOM true?
When I joined the church is was all about establishing Joseph Smith as a prophet. Usually with the classic line of reasoning that if the BoM is true, that means Joseph was a prophet, and if Joseph was a prophet that means the church is true. Eternal families was also a bigger selling point back in those days. I think eternal families may have diminished as a selling point in more recent years because I think wider Christianity has transitioned to believing that an eternal family is the default position.
Reflecting back to when I joined the church, sometime very early after being baptized my mindset flipped from asking whether the church as a good fit for me to a mindset of whether I was a good fit for the church. I’d remain in that mindset for decades. If there was any discomfort with the experience I believed I was the one that was lacking, not the experience. That wasn’t a healthy mindset for me.
This is getting over-long. I’ll break it into two posts.
The article talks about factors to consider when joining a church. I’ve mentioned many times, I did a thing where I visited a different church once a month. I wasn’t shopping around for a new church, I just wanted to broaden my perspectives. I quickly discovered that I’m just not a “joiner.” Had I not believed our church was true, I wouldn’t have joined or stuck with it. But on to the article…
Doctrine and Beliefs – I think the church is set up to attract people that are primed to believe the church’s doctrine and beliefs. Obvious, right? But what I mean by that is that if you differ in any way, the expectation is that you adapt to the church’s beliefs. People that expect the church to be more inclusive and accommodating will probably end up disappointed.
I think we’re seeing more movement towards inclusivity in recent years. It’s a strange phenomenon though. Members in local wards are usually way out ahead of the church organization on being more inclusive but the doctrines are still policed. We slowly move from orthodoxy to orthodoxy. People with different beliefs often starve on the vine waiting for more inclusive change.
- Worship Style – I can sum that up in one word. Boring. What can I say, some people like boring.
:angel: A church with loud energetic music where I’m expected to dance around and raise the roof is a complete non-starter for me. At the same time our meetings are a little too sterile, curated, predictable, boring, uninspiring… I better stop.- Community Involvement – I think we’re getting better but I think we’re still more insular than outreaching.
- Leadership and Governance – we’ve got too much of this in the bank. I think we should loan it out to other churches or do a massive giveaway. There’s too much power consolidated to one man and one small group of men. Ready to be more inclusive? Get ready to wait on a 100 year old man at the top of the hierarchy to arrive at the conclusion society reached a few decades ago before getting permission that it’s now okay to be more inclusive.
- Youth and Family Programs – we should probably start looking into those.
- Mission and Vision – we have the three (or four?) fold mission of the church. They either speak to you or they don’t. Personally the church’s vision always feels like it’s focused on growing the church. So much so that it comes at the expense of the individual member. Just my feelings on the matter.
- Inclusivity and Diversity – I’ll repeat what I said earlier, I feel members at the ward level are more inclusive than church culture inspires them to be… and that’s me being extremely kind based on my experiences.
It’s not all sunshine and roses at the ward level though. Sometimes it’s just one other person in your Sunday School class that helps you feel included, sometimes it’s the majority of people in your bishopric, RS presidency, and EQ presidency, sometimes it can feel like it’s just you. The challenge is that the more inclusive people are working against the weight of the Leadership and Governance bullet point above. All it takes is one person in your Sunday School class, or a majority of the people in your bishopric, RS presidency, and EQ presidency to cite a figure that’s authoritative to shut the doors of inclusivity in a ward.
- Facilities and Accessibility – the buildings function. They’re less interesting than the box amazon uses to ship items, but they function. Well unless you want to use the kitchen.
- Financial Transparency – hahahahahhhahaaaahhahahahahaha [wheeeeeeeze] hahahahahahahahhaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
- Spiritual Growth Opportunities – on the one hand we have lay ministry, our experience can be far more engaging that other churches. On the other hand I don’t feel like people are free to color outside of the lines. You can grow to be exactly this, but there’s a spiritual glass ceiling. I feel that orthodoxy can often limit people’s spiritual growth.
I was raised in the church and I haven’t done a ton of investigation of other churches for reasons. The way my faith transition landed actually pushed me outside of organized religion in general. On some levels, it would be more harmful to my spouse if I shifted commitment to another church then just my current perspective of no church engagement.
I fully believe that some people are more discerning of these types of questions when choosing church affiliation. These questions come from a position of privilege where one has the capacity to choose where to go and all choices are relatively equal (maybe they haven’t set up roots in a new city for example).
I think that part of it is that on some levels, our time is more prioritized for productivity (hence checklist shortcuts). I also think that church engagement (especially at the family level) has some intense competition that may not have existed to the degree it does previously. Churches have to sell the members more on “this is the best use of your time” against media (video games, TV, social media), hobbies (kid sports included), care tasks (with 2 people income meaning that there is less time to do more), “going out into the world” aka nature stuff or tourist stuff, and work (including continuing education tasks and side hustles).
If I was going to look into a different church, I would be most interested in the doctrines, how their organization is set up to transfer power to the members. I would also be looking for a church where there is a strong woman pastor (and not a decorative one). I would also be asking questions about how sexual transgressions are handled (member to member and leader to member specifically).
We have been visiting some churches. One spent far too much time talking about the science behind a 6,000 year old creationism. Another, seems to be good. More vibrant youth program, the membership seems to be welcoming, the worship music is nice, and the sermons follow the bible. Someone must work at the local grocery because there are always piles of baked goods for people to take home with them after the service. Still, I think it works best for us if we don’t take it too seriously. My 17 year old son was telling me that one of the youth leaders was saying that the only unforgivable sin was to abandon the church after the holy spirit has shone inside you. I explained to my son that yes the bible does say something to that effect but the bible was written 2000+ years ago and contains lots of things that don’t really apply to us now. It also is awfully convenient for current church members to look at those that have fallen away with a mix of scorn and pity. That helps keep current church members loyal.
The broad strokes are good. Jesus gave his life for us to lay claim upon us as his children and family. Just don’t take all the minutia too seriously.
As I review the 10 questions & responses everyone has posted, I realize that at the time I joined the LDS church, I spent more time & effort buying a used car then I did about the
joining the church. That doesn’t mean joining the church was a bad decision. My decision
was based on a “good” feeling that were interpreted by me as spiritual or a “personal
revelation”.
I have often thought about the decisions I’ve made in life & how different my life would
have been if my decisions would have taken a different path. For example:
. the major chosen in college.
. the company that offered me a job.
. my wife saying yes when I proposed.
. the list is endless along life’s path.
Minyan Man wrote:
As I review the 10 questions & responses everyone has posted, I realize that at the time Ijoined the LDS church, I spent more time & effort buying a used car then I did about the
joining the church. That doesn’t mean joining the church was a bad decision. My decision
was based on a “good” feeling that were interpreted by me as spiritual or a “personal
revelation”.
I have often thought about the decisions I’ve made in life & how different my life would
have been if my decisions would have taken a different path. For example:
. the major chosen in college.
. the company that offered me a job.
. my wife saying yes when I proposed.
. the list is endless along life’s path.
I benefited from the structure and discipline during my formative years. I learned to hard work, good study habits, and the value of volunteerism.
I took some college classes before serving as a missionary and my average was mostly B’s with a smattering of C’s. After returning, my GPA improved mightily.
I believe that other areas of my life were blessed as well as I was prevented from making bad and far reaching mistakes regarding sexual activity and substance use.
I am at peace with what I gave to the church during that time in my life and I’m at peace with what the church gave to me.
Coming from a predominantly Protestant area (Catholicism and Judaism are not absent) I observe that some Protestants regularly “church shop.” Often it has to do with the minor differences in doctrine, teachings or belief, sometimes it’s just not liking the current pastor. The recent split in the Methodist church led to a bit of an increase (not all stayed with their old congregation whether or not it changed). The local Nazarene church seems very popular (hundreds at multiple Sunday services) I think for the most part because of activities and inclusiveness which includes a vibrant youth program. I have also observed over the years that the majority of people who join the LDS church here seem to have not necessarily been looking for another church and often weren’t part of any other church. I suppose there could be several reasons for this, including that missionaries at least explain the main beliefs of the church to prospective members (although in my opinion this could be much better explained, particularly in regard to commitments). I pretty much agree with Nibbler’s assessment of the LDS church in regard to the 10 questions. I think that we do well in some of those areas compared to the few others I have been to here. Just a couple notes about that:
1. Doctrine/belief. I agree with Roy here:
Quote:The broad strokes are good. Jesus gave his life for us to lay claim upon us as his children and family. Just don’t take all the minutia too seriously.
I think many churches have trouble with the last bit, but the LDS church seems to focus on some of the minutia a bit more than some others (covenant path and all).
2. Worship style. I haven’t been to a Sunday service of the Nazarene church, but a few of our neighbors go there. It’s actually also streamed, I should check it out. From what I gather, while it’s not necessarily loud music, there are regularly more musical instruments than the organ or piano and the sermons are a far cry from the average SM talk. The Methodist church my sister-in-law goes to has two services – one very traditional and the other more modern. She and her husband go to both (and he frequently plays his guitar in both). While I get that people born in the church and those who have been members for a long time are accustomed to our meeting style and sometimes have difficulty adjusting to other styles, I am not especially fond of ours and do find it mostly boring as Nibbler points out.
3. Community involvement. Going back to the Nazarene church I’ll use a recent example. We had some flash flooding last week that affected a small nearby community and necessitating that some people leave their homes for a few days. The Nazarenes immediately mobilized opening their building and sharing. People had a safe place to stay, and they were fed 3 meals per day, etc. The Red Cross was their partner, but the church itself already had much of what it needed on hand and at the ready. They asked for specific donations (mostly clothing) and asked for anyone willing to volunteer to come help. They even had a webpage set up with available times and needs so it was easy for people to help. From the news reports it seems like lots of people turned out. Of course this wouldn’t work in our building because someone might actually want coffee. The Nazarenes also host the local farmer’s market in their parking lot twice a week all summer long.
4. Leadership/governance. Many Protestant churches have a great deal of latitude in how things are done locally. Catholicism is more like the LDS church. Both have their advantages. I would prefer a little leeway.
9. Financial transparency. I’ll use the local Methodist congregation for this one. At the front of the chapel on a sign similar to the hymn board (which are similar to ours) there is a board spelling it out in general terms – what their expenses were last month, what they took in last month and what their expected expenses are this month. Every time I have been the income has outpaced the expenditures. I’m not sure exactly what they do with the excess, but I am sure they don’t have hundreds of billions in investments (I would doubt more than a few thousand in savings).
Summarizing my own status, I am not of the mindset that of the church isn’t true then no church is. The church is my community/tribe even though I don’t currently attend anything other than an activity here and there. I am also not especially eager to participate in any other church either.
I think the questions sound a bit liberal (the diversity question), and the financial transparency criterion sounds like a reaction to a church like the COJCOLDS that is not transparent about its finances at all. As a seasoned man now, if I was shopping for a religion I would probably ask:
1. What do they expect of me, and can I meet those expectations without feeling burdened or experiencing negative impact on my mental health?
2. How well do I bond with the kind of people who attend such a church?
3. Are they respectful of my time? [A big one, as someone who has invested a lot of time in activities that have no spiritual or factual return on investment].
4. Are they financially transparent?
5. Will committing myself to this church make me happy?
Since I reduced my involvement in the LDS church, my mental health and overall happiness is much higher than it was when I was a committed member. In that respect, the LDS Church fails in meeting #1 and #5. It doesn’t pass #4, and does not pass #3 either. #2 is so-so — I have had some wards where sitting down at a ward social and trying to get a conversation out of most people is like pulling teeth. I’ve had others where I admire the people, but there was no friendship there. And there was one Ward where I got along well with everyone, and even made a friend who is still a friend 35 years later.
But I still identify as Mormon. Still live the lifestyle principles, in spite of temptation to do otherwise. And always leave myself open to return to it some day. With definite boundaries, that’s for sure.
I don’t mean to pick on our church (too much 
Do they respect my boundaries?
I’ve had trouble with that one in the past.
We have a unique culture that makes boundaries especially tough for people to both set and to honor. Leaders with jobs that have to be delegated, otherwise they’re overwhelmed with having to do everything. A culture that teaches (or once taught) that it’s not okay to say no to assignments. A culture that has the mindset that all members should be all-in on all programs. A mindset of, “I know what they said but I also know what’s really best for them spiritually.”
Church can be a fun place with respect to boundaries.
My one core “doctrinal” question would be: Does what it teach resonate with me (at least in the big picture aspect?
My secondary question would be:
Do the people appear to like and associate with other and visitors, in a nice way?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.