11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

There is a flipside to this. Say little Johnny/Janey takes a car accident, or worse cancer, and isn’t baptized. We think anyone over seven has personal choice (which is true to a degree but I think it is incremental)… Then basically they become an unsaved soul.

My issue isn’t with baptism, it’s with being bullied into being a missionary.

That’s pretty simple – they get their name done in the temple like every other unbaptized person.

I hear what you’re saying though and I agree. We had a stake council meeting this week where the age thing was discussed and the question was about a kid (real situation) who is turning 12 next December and Dad (a stake leader but not part of the meeting) doesn’t think he’s really ready because he’s a little on the immature side. I know who the kid is and looking at him you’d think he’s about 8, I had no idea he just turned 11. Dad’s question was “Is there a choice?” because he’s already been contacted by the bishop about interviewing him. Interestingly, the SP kind of hemmed and hawed about it. If you read the thing it does talk about readiness, worthiness and personal circumstances:

Ordination to a priesthood office for young men and obtaining a limited-use temple recommend for young women and young men will continue to be individual matters, based on worthiness, readiness, and personal circumstances.

But the SP was much more of a mind to ordain them all (including this boy) unless there is some (unspecified) major reason not to – and I don’t think the father’s opinion that he wasn’t ready was major enough. I interjected that the above quote seemed to indicate there was some leeway, and someone else brought up peer pressure and expectations as sort of a counter. I think for some kids, and maybe those in part member families or less active families more especially, that expectation might be the cause for some added anxiety and some kids struggle with anxiety as it is. I think anxiety was actually part of this father’s concern. It is what it is, but it appears my SP is going to push for all 11 year olds on Jan. 1 to get ordained and/or get recommends. I recognize that’s my interpretation and it doesn’t directly affect me.

That said, is this just one more attempt at trying to hold on to kids who we’re losing in droves? Let’s face it, there are lots of kids who are strong enough to just stand up to Mom and Dad at around 14 and just stop coming. There are lots of other kids (maybe more than this other group) who wish they could do that. I think the percentage of teenage kids (and extend this to young adults) who are there by their own choice is actually quite small – and some of that is manifest in RMs who are inactive within two years of coming home, which coincides with their being out from under Mom’s and Dad’s thumbs. If this is another attempt to stem the tide I think it will fail as much as the other similar attempts have. I think five years from now we will so no difference in the current trend of teen/young adult inactivity.

On the subject of maturity. Is the PH meant to be a reward for people who have matured or is it given to people who aren’t ready so they can mature into it?

I’d say neither. It’s given to people to oblige them to serve. No one expects an eight year old to be of much “service”. Nor would any 8 year old consider anything that isn’t fun a “blessing”. But once they turn 11-12, those legs, arms, and brain are fit for all sorts of labor. If they don’t enjoy it, call them to repentance.

He said something to the effect of all the changes are pointing toward the end of what he called “casual membership.”

Exactly. I see it as the old way wasn’t working so let’s make the ‘requirements’ more broad and open. Lose the rigidity.

And I see ministering as only more when more is needed, and not forcing a visit/home teaching to get in at the end of the month (which isn’t genuine anyway).

I said ministering is more what I was doing already, I was not a one a month visiter, but people knew they could call me anytime because I was a friend. Whereas our new eqp said we had to get out there even more than before.

On the subject of maturity. Is the PH meant to be a reward for people who have matured or is it given to people who aren’t ready so they can mature into it?

I’d say neither. It’s given to people to oblige them to serve. No one expects an eight year old to be of much “service”. Nor would any 8 year old consider anything that isn’t fun a “blessing”. But once they turn 11-12, those legs, arms, and brain are fit for all sorts of labor. If they don’t enjoy it, call them to repentance.

Agreed (see above). I wouldn’t be surprised at someday 8 year olds being ordained because they are quite capable of passing the sacrament.

Edited to add: I had not seen this before I typed the above. At the bottom of the page in this link it states that at one time boys as young as 8 were ordained. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/age-changes-youth-progression-ordination-announced” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/age-changes-youth-progression-ordination-announced

Edited to add: I had not seen this before I typed the above. At the bottom of the page in this link it states that at one time boys as young as 8 were ordained. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/age-changes-youth-progression-ordination-announced” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/age-changes-youth-progression-ordination-announced

Lol. I wonder why they changed it? Revelation?

… earlier ordination/temple might be seen by the church as another hook (or nail in the coffin depending on your point of view) that might entice the kid to stay longer.

Both are pretty grotesque allegories. Personally, I’d rather see another nail in my coffin, than another hook in my skin.

I was thinking more of a fish hook, but it is open to interpretation. I’m just saying I think from the church point of view this might be seen as something that will help us hold on to kids longer, I just don’t believe that’s true. And from some people’s point of view this is another straw on the camel’s back – “What? I thought ordination at 12 was on Moses’s tablets!”

I was thinking more of a fish hook, but it is open to interpretation.

I was thinking that too, but it doesn’t make it any better. Getting “hooked” is a terrible ordeal for fishes and people alike.

It doesn’t come with the negative connotations, since it’s so commonplace. But it’s one of those sayings that’s pretty dark at its root. It means you’ve been trapped, and your only hope of escape is through a painful, excruciating process. But stay “hooked” or try to tear away, you might not survive.

Yeah, that’s why the analogy works so perfectly.

I think rites of passage are very important. The Jews have the right idea and the RCs too to some extent with first communion.

It is important growing up to have waymarks. Secular society doesn’t do this much and I think we see the consequences of this.

Strictly numerically, I am postitve there are far more kids who will be excited about leaving Primary than there will be who will want to stay.

I feel,for the exceptions, like I feel currently for those who have to stay as all of their friends leave, but, statistically, I am sure this will be a very popular change.