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September 25, 2019 at 11:50 pm #337430
Anonymous
GuestSpeaking of something less than transparency. The whole POX section was an issue and how it was presented was definitely “spin”. RMN said “Consider the [POX] related to the
advisabilityof baptism for children LGBT parents” He then says that their concern was to reduce friction between parents and children. That to me seems like a smokescreen. Consider that in order to become baptized under this policy, the now adult children of LGBT parents would have to “specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.” Are you seriously telling me that your concern was and is for the “friction” between parents and children but the only exception listed requires the then adult children to disavow the parents marriage or significant other relationship? RMN knows that there were other more pressing concerns that he is omitting. Why not just tell the truth? (incidentally, Even the Elder Christopherson clarification back in 2015 gave more weight to the recent change in US law towards same sex marriage and the desire of the church to clarify its policy towards SSM, couples, and families. This same policy that RMN is referring to required that those couples be treated as apostates with mandatory disciplinary counsels.) President RMN continues “in 2015 the policy was made to
assistchildren and their parents in this circumstance. Namely, that children of LGBT parents would not automatically be eligiblefor baptism at age 8. Exceptions to this policy would require first presidency approval.” Let’s compare this to the policy found in the handbook.
Quote:A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing. A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows:
A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met:
1. The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.
2. The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.
According to this, children living in these circumstances may not be baptized. The only exception listed is to go through a mission or stake president once the child has turned 18 and disavowed SSM.
President RMN continues “We also took note of LGBT parents who sought permission from the first presidency for their children to be baptised. In nearly every case where the LGBT parents agreed to teach their children about and be supportive of the covenant of baptism the requested exception was granted.” Was there some other appeals process other than what I quoted above? How would a parent go about appealing to the office of the first presidency? Do they just ignore the words of the policy that state that appeals may be made “only” under the following conditions? I imagine that most church leaders would be highly reluctant to forward an apeal to the first presidency that condtradicted the handbook. When RMN says “In nearly every case where the LGBT parents agreed to teach their children about and be supportive of the covenant of baptism the requested exception was granted.” is teaching their “children about … the covenant of baptism” and having the child disavow “the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage” synonymous? It sure sounds like these exceptions to the policy were still under age, where they required to submit to the other stated requirement of disavowal or not?
President RMN continues “we recently felt directed to adjust the policy such that the baptism of children of LGBT parents may be authorized by bishops without first presidency approval.”
The policy is not rescinded, it is adjusted. The FP retained authority to baptize children of LGBT parents all along and now that authority is just extended to ward bishops.
Sounds like a heavy dose of PR spin going on. (all underlining are mine for emphasis of particularly interesting word choices)
September 26, 2019 at 12:09 am #337431Anonymous
Guestnibbler wrote:
d) Nelson makes it sound like big, bad, old meanie god laid down his law/truth, it hurt people, but Nelson interceded on behalf of all of us and pled with god to show us some mercy. tommy_lee_jones_newspaper.jpg
Yes, this is another observation. President RMN said that they cannot change God’s laws but … “We can adjust policy when the Lord directs us to do so.” He repeatedly refers to their “seeking”, “pleading” and “supplications” and the “direction” of the Lord.It is weird because it makes it sound like the Q15 are powerless to change a simple policy without the Lord’s direction. This is at least consistent with President RMN’s past statements that both the POX and its removal was the product of revelation. But it is also weird. If it takes revelation to adjust policy then isn’t all policy de facto revelation?
It sets up a view of the continuing restoration (which I love as a concept) where everything in the church today is exactly the way that God wants it for today. Tomorrow God will want it to be slightly different, will direct some minor changes, and then the church will be exactly the way that God wants it to be for tomorrow. And so on and so on.
What a fascinating approach to perhaps claim both perfection and continuing revelation/improvement at the same time!
September 26, 2019 at 9:39 pm #337432Anonymous
GuestI respect his view for what it is: his view, based on his personality and life experiences. I disagree with his view about things being absolute. He isn’t alone in that. Concrete, absolute thinking is all too common. “Everyone can experience ___________,” and, “I promise _____________,” just don’t work universally. I get his view; I just disagree.
Does that mean I think he isn’t a prophet? Not, necessarily, since I have no illusion that anyone sees everything accurately. My definition of prophets is very different than the orthodox view. We all see through a glass darkly, as another apostle said so long ago. He claimed to have seen the Celestial Kingdom (3rd heaven), but he still didn’t understand everything clearly.
President Nelson is who he is, and I still appreciate his willingness to change things. It gives me a degree of hope for more changes in the future.
September 27, 2019 at 4:24 pm #337433Anonymous
GuestI have had a few days to consider my response/rant above and I have cooled off. 1) Religion is an area where you can use generalities, platitudes, hyperbole, and other imprecise descriptions. That is just the nature of religion.
2)
Promises and “It always works!”. It is Pres. RMN’s job to give a sense of confidence to people on subjects that are pretty impossible to know through scientific channels. I think that I sometimes expect his history as a medical doctor to deliver more precise and evidence based language and I did not like that he used an example from his experience as a medical doctor to support his point. Perhaps this is asking too much and I can give him a break. Perhaps I would have been less upset by this if President RMN had had a different occupation… like that of a pilot perhaps. 
3)
The POX and the reversal of the POX being put to some serious PR treatment. Yeah, President RMN is in a bit of a pickle there. The POX was an awful PR nightmare for the church and then Elder Nelson was on record as having said that it was the result of revelation. Four years later it was pretty apparent that this policy is hurting the church and the church members. The leadership removed the POX. But then the church is criticized for the quick flip-flop. Did God change his mind? I believe that Pres. RMN is trying to make the best of a bad situation. He is giving a fairly plausible and faithful explanation to those that are confused by the whole ordeal but are really eager to have a faithful explanation that they can latch onto. The audience may be important. RMN was speaking to the youth of the church. They are simultaneously the future leadership of the church and the group that the church is struggling to retain. Considering this, it might have been negligence if President RMN
didn’tattempt to address this controversy in some fashion in the minds of the young people of the church. In this same speech President RMN says that he has the charge to “build up the church” and regulate it’s affairs. Perhaps he is just doing his level best under the circumstances. October 1, 2019 at 1:13 pm #337434Anonymous
GuestDoubtingTom wrote:
I think I’ve come to realize I just don’t really care much for Nelson’s version of the gospel. It’s a version where God’s love is conditional, obedience is of supreme importance, and prophets always tell the truth. It’s just not very applicable. Too bad because I really like him as a person, just not the way he interprets and applies the gospel in his own life and subsequently what he presents as the absolute “truth” to members. Other prophets and apostles have presented a better version.
I think I prefer Monson’s interpretation, even though that horrible child policy was under his watch.
Is this correlation mark 2? I can’t tell yet.
October 4, 2019 at 12:43 pm #337435Anonymous
GuestRoy wrote:
2)Promises and “It always works!”. It is Pres. RMN’s job to give a sense of confidence to people on subjects that are pretty impossible to know through scientific channels. I think that I sometimes expect his history as a medical doctor to deliver more precise and evidence based language and I did not like that he used an example from his experience as a medical doctor to support his point. Perhaps this is asking too much and I can give him a break. Perhaps I would have been less upset by this if President RMN had had a different occupation… like that of a pilot perhaps. 
That “always works” quote always bugs me (so from that point of view the quote always works to bug me). He had previously used the same analogy in a GC talk. Here’s the whole quote from the devotional:
Quote:We learned that if we added potassium chloride to blood flowing into the coronary arteries, thereby altering the normal sodium/potassium ratio, the heart would stop beating instantly. Then, when we nourished the heart with blood that had a normal sodium/potassium ratio, the heart would spring back to its normal beating pattern. Literally we could turn the heart off long enough to repair it, and then turn it back on again.
Decades later when I explained this to a group of medical students, one prominent professor asked, “But what if it doesn’t work?” My answer? It always works, because it is based on divine law.
In a former life I was a surgical technician. I was for a time part of the open heart team, but please don’t equate my experience with the surgeon’s. I have seen the beating heart and I have seen as RMN describes. In my much more limited experience it does always work. But it doesn’t always work for very long and other factors have a profound effect on how and how long it works. I think that is very much unlike a divine law which it would seem by design would always work long term regardless of any other factors.
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