A direct attack on StayLDS by the apologists.

[Anonymous]

We are antichrists, according to Midgley. enjoy:http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/defending-the-king-and-his-kingdom/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/defending-the-king-and-his-kingdom/

do you feel the love?

to the church’s extreme credit, these guys no longer have church support or imprimatur. most of what these guys write makes me want to leave mormonism way behind. i know some you get benefit from apologetics, but i think they are intellectually dishonest and thus do violence to the thinking mind.

what do you think?

[Anonymous]

I think many of these folks who participate at MDDB are in absolute apostasy and an embarrassment to the lds organization. And I can’t understand why the church leadership continue to focus on pharasicial laws and run us staylds types out and allow this type of apostasy we see from MDDB and MI to run rampant within its doors.

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[Anonymous]

Did he specifically mention the site? It looked like he was going after Mormon Stories and other podcasts. It just looked to me like an emotional defense of apologists. I didn’t read that closely as I felt the flecks of spittle flying out of his mouth and hitting me in the face as I read. Good heavens! This kind of defense relies on some broad brushing of the opposing view. I’m not offended.

[Anonymous]

“Oooh, look at me, I know lots of Greek words irrelevant to my article, now gimme some candy!”

He says:

Quote:

The now-enthroned King called His followers to seek righteousness and receive sanctification. This is at the heart of Christ’s gospel (see 1 John 1:5; 3:11–16). The condition for citizenship in the Kingdom of God is that one must genuinely seek and accept sanctification by undergoing what is sometimes called the baptism of fire or of the Holy Spirit.

And how is that the exclusive domain of Mormons?

Quote:

Those who have turned away from the Lord often deny that there is sin (1 John 1:8, 10), though they might grant that there are mistakes, shortcomings, or miscalculations in seeking pleasure. The faithful turn to God and confess their sins—understood as offenses against God—and seek the companionship of the Holy Spirit and thereby the service of an Advocate with the Father.

If sin is the processes of committing acts that are offensive against God, I would imagine few ‘middle-way’ Mormons (who retain a belief in God) deny there is sin, or deny some of their acts are offensive against God. But they might say that (sometimes vague) policies of church leaders aren’t the final word on what God finds offensive.

Quote:

The sign of being one with Christ (or loving God) is faith and faithfulness in keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3) and following his example of selfless love thus living as Jesus did, fully obedient to His (and our) Father

I’m glad the writer feels safe in his tower of obedience. It must be nice to be so “fully” keeping his commandments that repentance becomes a dormant principle. I’m not at that stage, nor do I consider it possible.

Quote:

Has the Jesus-myth ideology had any impact on Latter-day Saints? Probably not, since most of the Saints who go missing do so for other than genuinely intellectual reasons. Their stereotyped exit-stories indicate that they look for intellectual support for their rejection of their faith only after they have made the decision not to be faithful to their covenants.

I’m amazed he feels he the ability to see into the hearts, minds and secrets of every member who doubts. This is one of the most patronising responses I hear from a TBM. I think it’s their coping mechanism “they must be a sinner, justifying the weakness through rational though.” The reality is, they can’t bear to consider it came the other way round, else that would put them at risk too.

Quote:

Those who succumb to an atheist ideology also jettison all hope for genuine meaning to their endeavors.

Another narrow minded misunderstanding of others motives. My bro-in-law is an atheist, but one of the most morally motivated people I know. It’s a greater reflection on the frailty of character of the believer when they say that without religion’s dogma they would become a raving anarchist.

I got bored about way through. Did it get any better? I suppose not.

This seems to not only be an attack on the likes of NOM/MS and us, but even a gripe at the new NAMI leadership team who kicked out Peterson before he had the chance to use NAMI as a platform for his 100 page attack on John Delin & Co.

Midgley sounds like a bitter old man. Given both the new NAMI leadership and JD receive apparent support from the brethren, maybe he should ask who he’s really attacking?

[Anonymous]

I also think Midgley needs to familiarize himself with GA Poelman’s talk about the difference between the Gospel and the church.

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[Anonymous]

I glanced over the whole article but found no direct reference to staylds. I will admit I didn’t read the whole thing but will here after this message

Help me understand

#1.) McKay – what do you feel he is saying that specifically applies negatively to you or staylds?

#2.)CWALD – What specifically is happens at MDDB that you feel is apostate?

I want to relate to your comments but fail to see the specific correlation

[Anonymous]

DBMormon wrote:

…

#2.)CWALD – What specifically is happens at MDDB that you feel is apostate?

I want to relate to your comments but fail to see the specific correlation

I’m not a good enough writer or disciplined enough or sober enough to do so and still follow the guidelines and mission of the staylds website. I’ve already recently been put in the straight jacket by the staylds moderators…

I will say though, if one truly understands the works of “the king” from the Biblical account…Jesus spent his life condemning the self righteous Midgley Pharasies who felt devotion to the church was more important than the Gospel….not the the honest, struggling NOMs who were trying to find the Way.

Much of midgley’s quotes come from paul…not Jesus.

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[Anonymous]

DBMormon wrote:

I glanced over the whole article but found no direct reference to staylds. I will admit I didn’t read the whole thing but will here after this message

Help me understand

I want to relate to your comments but fail to see the specific correlation

He specifically mentioned NOM. And EVERYONE on this planet knows how Midgley and the MDDB crowd feels about John Dehlin and the middle way vision. Staylds is Jd’s brain child.

The middle way is the mission of staylds and NOM.

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[Anonymous]

I have to admit I had to really grit my teeth to not comment on the article on MI. And yes, I feel he was directly referencing us in the first line of the abstract with “why stay.” This is the second heading in HowToStay linked from resources. I agree with some of you on this whole heartedly. How can one be so self righteous as to not find any good in a group like this.

Testimony time!

I’d like to bear my testimony, I know stayLDS is…inspired by GOD! I truly believe I was led to this group. I have found great peace since doing so. Moreover, where as before my faith was on a downward spiral to complete inactivity/apostasy it has actually started to go up. Hater’s gonna hate, but I feel closer to “God” than in many years even if my definition/understanding is different. Heck, maybe that’s why! JS did teach that one had to understand the true nature of God to have faith in Him… :think:

Anyways, Forty-seven percent of Mormons blindly follow church leaders. Our job is not to worry about those people. we’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their own salvation. (<----You see what I did there? )

[Anonymous]

I ignore Midgely – completely.

It’s not worth the emotional or intellectual capital I would spend trying to read and respond to him, especially since he doesn’t represent “the brethren” any more than I do.

Also, fwiw, this might be someone’s brainchild, but it’s not his baby or his child. It’s ours. (That makes it polyandrous, and how more Mormon can you get than that? )

There is a difference, and it needs to be said in writing at least once.

[Anonymous]

DBMormon wrote:

I glanced over the whole article but found no direct reference to staylds. I will admit I didn’t read the whole thing but will here after this message

Help me understand

#1.) McKay – what do you feel he is saying that specifically applies negatively to you or staylds?

#2.)CWALD – What specifically is happens at MDDB that you feel is apostate?

I want to relate to your comments but fail to see the specific correlation

I found the whole article offensive from beginning to end.

It was basically saying “I’m right, everyone else is wrong.” I found more bigotry than charity in it.

I don’t know that I’d call myself a genuine ‘NOM’ – if I reach a final ‘don’t believe any of it’ conclusion I won’t stay. The NOM board seems more about staying begrudgingly. But perhaps that’s just the threads I’ve read. I feel this board is more about finding a more positive motive for staying.

But in either case, the article was very condescending about seemed to attack anything that wasn’t a blinkered defence of the realm. I disliked his attitude and tone.

I’m happy with him finding ‘his way,’ but I don’t need him to shout about it as the only way. Especially when he has no authority, no calling, no mandate to so, other than his own philosophies mingled with his interpretation of scripture.

The problem with articles like that is not simply a ‘he can say what he likes/free speech’ issue. The MI website is growing in popularity and is seen as the ‘genuine’ apologists. For them to have a series of articles in issue 2 that is all ‘nothing to see here, everyone else has got the history wrong (like the first vision article in the same issue)’ and then sign off with a ‘if you dare to question us you’re a sinner’ article is aggressive and unproductive.

It also acts as a justification and rallying call for the MDDB types who will leap, like a pack of wolves, on anyone (like Tacenda) who raises questions and concerns.

You’re own recent threads on there (including the treasure digging and ‘for those who never doubted’ ones) shows how aggressive and personal people get in their replies to reasonable questions. Articles like Widgley’s justify that attacking style, convincing them they are defending the faith against the lazy doubters who are trying to bring it all down.

Some of the posters on MDDB are compassionate, decent types who I’d happily have lunch with. Others would be motivation enough to emigrate if I even shared a country with them.

Did I miss anything cwald?

[Anonymous]

DBMormon wrote:

#2.)CWALD – What specifically is happens at MDDB that you feel is apostate?

I want to relate to your comments but fail to see the specific correlation

I wise man that post at the NOM board had this to say…and I think it makes my point about MDDB and Midgley being much more of apostates and “antichrists” than many NOM and stayLDS members.

Quote:

Reading apologetics is toxic to the mind. Might I remind Midgley that Jesus stongest invectives were against those scribes like him?

I get tired of mopolegists bashing on struggling members who seek the path….any kind of path to remain in the church…seek only to find reasons to stay, inspite in of it. Tired of the “whole sheep in wolves clothing” crap, and correlating “the church” with “the gospel and the Jesus Christ.” Midgley and the MDDB crowd are the real wolves in sheep clothing. IMO. The church IS NOT the gospel and the church IS NOT Christ…and those who reject the church…ARE NOT necessarily rejecting the gospel or Jesus or the atonement. And DB, if you are going to come on here and argue that that does not happen on MDDB…shame on you. You know what happens/happened over there.

[Anonymous]

mackay11 wrote:

Did I miss anything cwald?

Him that has ears…let him hear.

[Anonymous]

What do I think. That guy is a pompous ass and it is people like him that drives me cray. He would cast the first stone at the harlit and drive the nail in Jesus’s cross. He is way too full of himself.

[Anonymous]

the problem with apologetics is that it takes a worldview based in dogma, and then defends it at the expense of intellectual integrity.

Here is one midgely statement without facticity: “most of the Saints who go missing do so for other than genuinely intellectual reasons. Their stereotyped exit-stories indicate that they look for intellectual support for their rejection of their faith only after they have made the decision not to be faithful to their covenants.”

the data show otherwise, and it is insulting to those who have concerns based on the facts of church history and doctrine to propose otherwise. where is the reference? if midgely is a “faithful scholar”, then what “scholarship” is he using to defend this outright lie? the term “faithful” may have something to do with integrity and truth, or so it might if Midgely actually understood the Book of Mormon.

instead, he starts with a premise, that most of those in the questioning or doubting status, and especially those that leave, do so because of not being “faithful to their covenants.” then his entire screed defends the church by vilifying these “antichrists”. this is evil, hateful discourse, entirely out if step with where the church needs to be and appears to be going, albeit slowly.

these are the apostates that hurt the church most of all, because they preach hatred.

then there is the final quote in the article: “We all should answer the clear call of the trumpet of the Lord, and not be toying with the silly question “why stay”?”

The primary purpose of StayLDS, unlike any other site, is to address this question. we do not do so no by calling the question “silly”, but rather, allow participants to freely and openly explore doubts as they try to answer that question for themselves.

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