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there are, in my impression, some very unique teachings arising from Joseph Smith and the restoration. Joseph Smith, in Doctrine & Covenants Section 50, wrote:17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.
21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?
22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.
23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.
The context of this was that the Elders/missionaries were going out and getting into arguments over doctrine, and getting confused themselves. As I have noted elsewhere, the “spirit of prophecy” is in essence “inspired speculation about the unknown”, and the early saints were doing a lot of that. But in seeking an answer to this idea that the “inspiration” was not always “inspired”, the Lord revealed through Joseph Smith that in the pursuit of truth, or more specifically, in any discussion of truth, the “spirit of truth” must be there. The spirit of truth in discussing gospel matters has these characteristics:- 1.
The spirit of truth requires the statements taught and shared to be true. I know this is obvious, but just because two people share a perfect understanding and joy about something that isn’t true, their conversation is not sanctified by the spirit of truth. 2.
He that preaches AND he that receives are equally in tune with that spirit. This means that one does not broadcast over the other, but rather, there has to be a readiness on both parts to listen, and observe, and to share with that spirit. One does not “preach by the spirit” when the other is not in a receptive mode: no amount of pushing one’s point of view ever works. When Ammon finally had a meaningful discourse with Lamoni, they were both ready. Until that time, there is no effective preaching, teaching, or receiving. 3.
There is mutual understanding. If things are being interpreted wrong on either side, it’s a pretty good sign that the “spirit of truth” is not characterizing the conversation or dialogue. This works both ways. Even a well-meaning preacher, if the other side is not getting it, something is wrong in the equation. One does not solve this by telling the other that they’re stupid or anti-christ, but rather, one has to stop and wait until the spirit gives utterance. 4.
The spirit of truth edifies. This above all. When I see so much of internet debate, disagreement simply for the sake of disagreement, and then to proclaim that one side is better than the other because they forcefully won their argument. The point Joseph Smith makes is that no matter how much you think “being right” is superior to “being wrong”, if I’m right at the expense of another, it doesn’t edify. This obviously cuts both ways, being skeptical and disparaging the beliefs of another doesn’t edify either. So much internet debate leaves someone in the wake. It’s demeaning and unedifying. The entire premise of “apologetics” is to “Defend the King and Kingdom”, and in so doing, the tactics are to break down and vilify the opposition, saying that they are anti-christ, or that the reason they leave is because they want to break their covenants. These statements are not true, not in the spirit of truth, and don’t edify. If that which doesn’t edify is not of god, then why do they persist in this? It doesn’t matter — they are not our concern here. So in that spirit, I am with Ray in that I do not want to bring apologetics or apologists into this forum, lest the ‘spirit’ we have here be harmed by their methods.
Our concern here is the assistance of those who wish to stay LDS amidst faith crisis. Our concern here is to find a way to make the staying LDS not only tolerable, but edifying. Since most people in faith crisis are concerned about “truth claims”, then the “Spirit of Truth” may be important. I think Joseph Smith’s teachings, above, are a great way to pursue this goal.
I guess it is a moot point. Lious Midgley said:
Quote:I here some of Dan’s stories. But I have not gotten into blogs and boards very much.
I have looked around a little today. What I found was instructive in a negative way. Ignorance and hatred, coupled with smugness, are a dangerous mix.The product is, however, amusing. Well it is amusing to see folks who think that the scriptures are trash quoting them against the faithful. Or complaining about tone. Or a host of other things that their own words convict them of. Simply amazing. For those who might have a look at this thread from what seems like the asylum known as MAD,
or who self-identify as New Order or Middle Way types, and who even, it seems, wonder about the identity of the King who offers all of us the only genuine hope of liberation from a disconsolate world in which we all face the eventual death of our bodies and right now of our souls, I urge them to read John 18:36. This should remind them of who the real King is. This is, of course, a call to repentance,where that word means, as it does in our scriptures, turning to (returning to) the Lord, or of having a mighty change of heart and mind. All of us, of course, have to give up the illusion that the community of Saints is a kind of social club in which anything goes. Perhaps, I hope, during this season something might have softened hearts and opened minds to the exceedingly good news that may never have been fully grasped and is now being ridiculed and mocked on various dreadful blogs and boards.-sigh-
As I said, I ignore him and messages like that. They aren’t a description of me, and they aren’t a description of us. In the immortal words of Mr. Gump:
Quote:That’s all I have to say about that.
Old-Timer wrote:As I said, I ignore him and messages like that. They aren’t a description of me, and they aren’t a description of us.
In the immortal words of Mr. Gump:
Quote:That’s all I have to say about that.
Touche’.
Having followed most of the Midgley thread on MDDB, I find it a shame that the ‘middlewayers’ have resorted to name-calling on there or other threads. I’m new to this whole thing, so haven’t had the history of getting torn into by some of these guys. But I still think that stooping to the mud-slinging level means we lose the moral high-ground.
I don’t know yootaw, but I think he’s really undermining the thread and NOM’s argument. Seth and Adam seem to be doing a good job of making the points needed. Wayfarer, you’ve also been fighting the good fight but also walking, in my perception, a finer line.
But as stated, I don’t have the years of frustration of dealing with these people.
mackay11 wrote:Having followed most of the Midgley thread on MDDB, I find it a shame that the ‘middlewayers’ have resorted to name-calling on there or other threads.
I’m new to this whole thing, so haven’t had the history of getting torn into by some of these guys. But I still think that stooping to the mud-slinging level means we lose the moral high-ground.
I don’t know yootaw, but I think he’s really undermining the thread and NOM’s argument. Seth and Adam seem to be doing a good job of making the points needed. Wayfarer, you’ve also been fighting the good fight but also walking, in my perception, a finer line.
But as stated, I don’t have the years of frustration of dealing with these people.
amen brother. not the right place to be. that’s what i meant to DCP by ‘his terms’, which seem to be the lowest common denominator. it makes no sense at all.I am thru there for a long time — it doesn’t uplift, it doesn’t edify, and that which doesn’t edify is not of god, but darkness.
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