- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
i know that our leaders are human, so are we, and we all make mistakes. they spoke about that very thing in conference. I almost feel guilty writing about this. 2 years ago, something happened with my husband tha made him just break down and cry and he didn’t come to church for a little while. (my husband rarely cries) He started coming back somewhat,and he was called in by a counselor and asked to teach a class. He was hesitant about it, He didn’t want to teach every week. the counselor told him if he didn’t take this job, that the only think left was the nursery—mu husband told him to put him in he nursery. i felt the comment was a little bit out of line. During the week my husband asked me if i would be willing to teach with him. I said he would make me do all the work. He assured me he would do his part. he is a better teacher than me, anyway. The next week he was supposed to meet with the same counselor—he was taken into the clerks office, with the clerk sitting there in the room, and the hall door open. Not exactly an appropriate way to talk to someone about a church calling. i walked past and could hear the counselor say, “does your wife want to do this?” I would have done just about anything to keep him from going in-active–he was weak and teetering on the edge at the time. i would have done both of my church jobs. I also thought tht teaching tog ether would be good for hubby and me—we had really been struggling in our relation ship. My husband was waiting for an answer. I don’r feel like he was out of line to ask If i could teach with him, I know they can taylor certain jobs to help an individual. We were standing in Sacrament meeting, and they sustained another COUPLE to teach a class. My husband asked me if I thought that was they class they had wanted him to teach. My husband is pretty much inactive now. he will go to church, sacrament meeting only, about every other week. this has been really hard for me. he sits by the door and leaves as fast as he can.
I asked the bishop why they would not let us teach together. He told me he did not know and that he would have to talk to the counselor who talked to my hubby. I aske the same question a week or 2 later, and was told that the counselor felt like my hubby would make me do all the work. When i told my husband what the reason was, he said, “based on what?” My husband had had a very good track record with the jobs he had been given in this ward. My huband was bothered that he had been judged that way, and so was I.
because this had made such an impact on our whole family, I really had a hard time letting it go. I brought it up more a number of times o er the last 2 years. I was trying not to feel negatively towards the counselor that had judged my husband so poorly. Once the bishop told me that my husband had not been formally given the call. (now why was he called in a second time about the same call?) excuses were made for the counselor doing the calling in an appropriate manner–he just happened to be in the clerks office, so the counselor talked to him—he had been called back in to speak to the counselor again.
Sunday we had a comedy of errors before they could even get the sacrament done—it took 1/2 hour. Apparently, I had said something to the RS pres and one of her counselors that had bothered them–it was a smart alek comment. she told me a little bit, and I told her that it helped to know the whole story. since my husband has been mostly inactive for about 2 years now,I have been especially frustrated that we have not had home teachers or visiting teachers in our home for months. No one seemed to be putting in much effort to try and reactivate my husband. i had voiced to the RS pres and counselor that i felt like no one cared.
The bishop asked to talk to me before RS started, after he payed a visit to primary. he took me privately into a room and told me he wanted me to come to him first if I had a problem with something. I told him that we had talked about most of the things he brought up. he kept telling me he wanted me to come to him first. I didn’t know what in the hell he was talking about, but i felt like I was being reprimanded and I didn’t know why. I left church not feeling good and feeling like I never wanted to go to our ward again. I called the bishop a little later, told him I felt like I was being chewed out for something and I was confused. this time he told me that the RS pres said I had said something about not being visited and it was some thing she didn’t have control over. I brought up my husband’s issue. I told him I did not feel like there had been any prayer involved, because if there had been,he would have known why they wouldn’t let us teach together, but since he did not know, I told him I did not believe that there had been any prayer involved. I also felt like my husband had made a reasonable request,since jobs can sometimes be taylered to help individuals. My bishop made no comment at all about this.
Something still didn’t feel right after the first visit at church, and the first phone call I made—so I called him again to ask about it. He then told me that the RS pres and the counselor had both been upset because of some comment I made. then I was feeling really bad, practically in tears. I called the bishop the next morning and asked him just exactly what i had done wrong–he said we could talk about it on tuesday evening.
I went into to see him tues eve, in the meantime, I had talked to the counselor and she said she wasn’t upset at me, but didn’t hav time to talk. I went to the RS pres house and apologized to her and said I hoped she would forgive me–I did this twice–both times she seemed too angry and did not comment on my apology. She finally opened up and basically said she couldn’t do anything about us not having home teachers, and that she would love to see my hubby come back to church. she seemed a little less angry, and I asked what i culd do to help. she said they needed more visiting teachers—I said I could do tht because I am home alone all day doing nothing. I felt like I left on better terms with her –the counselor had said the RS pres wasn’t mad at me, except for a comment i made that i don’t even remember saying. By this time I had been told 3 different stories. The bishop had told me partial stories when I had talked to him.
On tues eve, I talked about my frustration over him giving me partial truths, because honesty is a big deal to me, and I had been taught that partial truths were the same as lying. I told him that I felt he had been telling me partial truths. He said he was trying to spare my feelings–and I pointed out that he had just created more problems. I also brought up my husband again. I said all calls were supposed to be approved by the bishop and that i felt like he had let the counselor make the decision
THEN he tells me that the counselor had talked to him and that the bishopric had discussed it and that he had made the decision he felt was best for the ward. i asked him if they had prayed about it–he admitted they had not. At some point in time he also said that my husband had turned down the call. I told him that he had not turned it down, but that he was waiting for an answer about the two of us teaching together, and the next thing we knew another couple was being sustained for the job. The rest of our conversation went fine and I went home determined to be part of the solution,not part of the problem. The next morning, it dawned on me that he had said my husband had turned down the call,which he had not. I really realized that he had not been truthful with me about what happened with my husband,nor with whatever had happened sunday. I had told him tues eve that because he was so vague when he talked to me on sunday that I was imagining all kinds of things that were upsetting. II woke up wed morning still feeling good
when it suddenly dawned on me that he had said my husband had turned down the call—which meant that he knew more than he was claiming when he told me he didn’t know the reason my husband and I couldn’t teach together. I called him at work and was polite, but I told him I felt he had not been completely honest with me, that he didn’t say anything when I told him I didn’t think prayer had been involved, otherwise he would known the reson we were not allowed to teach together when i had asked him. I asked if they had prayed about it, and he told me no. At one point he told me he couldn’t remember what he had told me when i asked why they wouldn’t let us teach together. I told him I did, because it was a big deal to me.THEN he tells me that they had discussed it as a bishopric and he had made the decision he felt was best for the ward. Since he was finally acknowledging that he had actually known all along, I asked him why they wouldn’t let us do it. I am pretty positive I heard some anger in his voice and he said he didn’t have to tell me that. I just said, “fair enough.” and let it go. I said that when i go in for a temple recommend I get asked if i am honest in all my doings—I told him we ALL get asked the same question. I told him I expected him to be totally honest with me. I told him I would rather he told me he truth instead of trying to “spare” my feelings. He asked , even if it was something tht would make me feel bad—and i said yes–I deserve the chance to make things right with someone if I have offended them, either by explaining, or by apologizing and saying i was out of line.After I hung up the phone, I just kind of had this sick feeling—the kind you get when something isn’t right and you feel really disappointed. My bishop had skirted around and said different versions of the same thing about my husband over th course of a couple of days, and made excuses for telling partial truths about whatever I did wrong on sunday. I don’t think he ever came right out and admitted that he had lied to me. I think I may have gotten a sort of vague, “if I did anything that made you feel like I wasn’t truthful with you,yada, yada. There may have been some kind of apology or an admission that it was wrong. He just could not bring himself to openly admit that he had lied to me when my husband went inactive, when he had told me he DID NOT KNOW why we had not been allowed to teach together. I have been working to not have negative feelings towards the counselor that I was made to believe had judged my husband very poorly–now I’m not sure who really felt negatively about my husband, since it had been discussed with the bishopric.
I just never thought a bishop would be dishonest with me. I’m kind of trying to process this in my brain. I know they are men who are imperfect, but honestly is a recommend question. i will still treat him respectfully, and I will still try to help in the ward—but I jut don’t think I can go there every sunday. I think I am too emotionally close to all of this and that it is hurting my testimony, and yes, I realize that I am the only one who can control that. I just feel like I may need to go to another ward sometimes where a lot of the people have known me for over 20 years. (our old ward in the other stake). I kind of need some time to get myself back on track and bolster up my testimony.
Has anyone dealt with anything like this before? was it wrong for me to call my bishop out about not being totally honest with me. was I wrong to tell him I expected him to be totally honest with me? Was it wrong for me to even tell you all about this? i know we are supposed to support our leaders–maybe I am not supporting him by being bothered by this.
Please—some advice without any lectures!!!
Christine
I’m so sorry to hear about your struggles right now. I don’t know what to tell you, ultimately. I wasn’t there, but I read a very complicated series of events in what you posted, full of hurt feelings among a lot of people. Whenever emotions are as high as they seem to be in this situation, it’s really hard for people to be objective and not make more of something than necessary – so the tendency is to remember things as being worse than they were. (That’s not directed at you; it’s a comment about human nature and everyone involved.)
I see someone (your Bishop) who was caught in the middle of a bunch of emotional people, trying hard to make decisions that impact those people – probably without all of the objective facts. I see others having the same concern you had about how your husband would react if the calling actually was offered. I see emotional reactions crossing each other. I see frustration among multiple people trying to figure out how to handle their own and others’ emotional reactions. I see a sort of “he said, she said” scenario that I can’t analyze objectively.
I see charges of lying that might or might not be accurate – and, perhaps, not just from you about your Bishop. I see reports of statements, by multiple people, that might or might not be accurate. I see lots of defensiveness from people feeling attacked.
More than anything, I see someone (you) for whom my heart aches because of everything with which you are trying to deal. I see someone who needs help – and there is NO shame or judgment in saying that. I hope and pray you find a medication that will work long-term – that your husband stops being abusive somehow – that you find something other than family that can give you a release during the day when you are currently alone – that you feel loved and accepted more than is the case right now.
I honestly can’t give you concrete advice right now, but I can and will pray for you.
I, too, read your whole post and backed up a couple times to try to make sure I was understanding and keeping everything straight in my mind. As Ray says, it’s very complicated and fraught with emotion. I agree with Ray that the bishop may feel caught in the middle. He wasn’t there for most of what happened and can only go on what others and you are telling him happened – some he said/she said. I also recognize that the bishop is trying to spare hurt feelings, including yours. I also believe in total honesty, but I have learned that it also not best to say some things even though they are honest. There once was a family in our ward who was teaching their young family about honesty and covered that same principle that even a half truth or not being totally forthright was dishonest. After an FHE discussion on the subject, one of the boys (about 6) told his Primary teacher she was fat and smelled funny. Totally honest, but didn’t need to be said. The teacher, by the way, was very hurt but forgiving. She was, however, released shortly thereafter.
So, to answer your questions:
Your situation is very specific to you, so I have not dealt with this specific situation before. There are complicated situations involving high emotions that do occur in church and outside all the time.
For your own emotional peace it does sound like you needed to have a conversation with your bishop. I don’t expect people to tell me I’m fat and smell funny, even if I am and do. I don’t expect my bishop to do so.
It’s not wrong for you to tell us this – part of this forum for many is anonymity. Unless one of us is a member of your ward (unlikely), we’re not going to know who you are or who anyone else involved with the story is. It does sound like you needed to vent, and I appreciate that and hope the forum gave you that opportunity.
After I came out of my HPGL calling, wounded, hurting, not sure what level of involvement I wanted, I got called to Gospel Essentials teacher. That went very well, with lots of positive feedback. One day, the Bishop calls me into his office and says he’s releasing me from Gospel Essentials. I was a bit shocked because it was helping me barely hang on. I was feeling the Spirit occasionally and had not yet slid into the brine of deep disillusionment where I am now. I said “What??”. He replies “Today is your last day”. I wondered if my brief digressions into unorthodoxy were the cause and asked if i had done something wrong to be released — he said “no”.
I asked “Have you spoke to the next person who will take my place as Gospel Essentials teacher???”. [Thinking that if the answer was “No”, I could convince him to leave me in the calling since I knew I was on the verge of losing my commitment altogether]. He looked uncomfortable and said “No”, but my sixth sense told me he wasn’t telling the truth, so I didn’t press the matter. Just left his office calling-less.
But then, 15 minutes later they sustained the new Gospel Essentials teacher in Sacrament meeting. I didn’t see her waiting outside his office, so I was pretty sure he HAD spoken to her before he released me. Plus she was prepared for the lesson.
I think he saw the shock on my face and it made him uncomfortable, or given my experience in the Church, and his newness in the position, wondered if he’d done something wrong by calling the new GE teacher first, without feeling me out about how I felt about being released.
Anyway, this isn’t the first time our Bishop has not told the truth — mine, yours or others.
Here we have to quote Uchdorft who said leaders make mistakes…..
Christine, I also read through your post with a heavy heart. I am sorry for the poor experience that you are having.
For me, I try to manage my expectations. I believe in being honest in owning my expectations. My expectations of ward officials are pretty low (I consider them volunteers).
Yes, we’ve had botched calling assignments. First I was told over the phone that DW was being called for one position, then when we met with the counselor it was another, then when we tried to clarify he admitted that he wasn’t quite sure what the job duties would be other than that it would be in the primary. When we later mentioned it to the bishop (to explain why she didn’t accept), he sounded surprised. He either didn’t know or couldn’t remember that my wife was being called to the primary.
These people were disorganized, forgetful, and had communication gaps so big you could drive a truck through them… But they are human and more or less fulfill my low expectations for them.
As far as lying… I also have a pretty high threshold for bending the truth. I see truth as flexible and fluid based on the perspective of the individual and what they choose to reveal. I know that this doesn’t help you and your higher standard of honesty, but I hope that you might be able to acknowledge that the bishop might not think that whatever he did constitutes as lying.
Finally, DW is the most conscientious person I know. She would never ever flake out. It it really hard for her when others do things like no show for birthday parties or get togethers and then a few days later they say that they got busy. For her that would be unthinkable and so she sees it as a major affront. Sometimes it is helpful to remind her that most people do not opperate to her standard of conscientiousness. Once the gap between her expectations and peoples’ behavior is identified then we can get to work on coping mechanisms. The coping mechanisms employed vary depending on the relationship with the individual.
I wish you peace. You and your family will be in my prayers tonight.
Roy
Bishops are often wrong, but very rarely dishonest in my experience. We had one guy in the next stake who pocketed tithing money to pay off debt, but that’s extremely rare thank God, and I think the man’s repented even so. Lying? I haven’t encountered one, although some may misrepresent feelings.
ps that was a very long story and as I am on a phone, regret to say I did not read it all.
Roy wrote:
Finally, DW is the most conscientious person I know. She would never ever flake out. It it really hard for her when others do things like no show for birthday parties or get togethers and then a few days later they say that they got busy. For her that would be unthinkable and so she sees it as a major affront. Sometimes it is helpful to remind her that most people do not opperate to her standard of conscientiousness. Once the gap between her expectations and peoples’ behavior is identified then we can get to work on coping mechanisms. The coping mechanisms employed vary depending on the relationship with the individual.I wish you peace. You and your family will be in my prayers tonight.
Roy
Wise words above from Roy. I am like Roy’s wife in that I always follow through on assignments and expect it from other people too. Will get up at 3 am if necessary to get work to someone when I have promised it. If I fail to follow through, it’s due to lack of organization, glitches or other things that have nothing to do with my motives. If I don’t follow through, it’s because I have made a mistake of some kind..
Part of my own crisis is the high standards I feel the church imposes on us, in contrast to the apparent lack of competence/follow-through/sensistivity/example-setting I see from our local leaders –both Ward and Stake.
I honestly feel the Saturday Night Live skit about low expectations is fitting for responsible people who want to stay active in the LDS Church. It was meant to be funny — indicating that when people have low expectations, their job looks good, their girlfriend/boyfriend looks good, their house looks good — everything looks good.
But it is true and a coping mechanism similar to what Roy is suggesting. I personally have coped with the lack of follow-through, lack of appreciation, lack of competence I see in the church. I do so by distancing myself from it. I still go, but the church is now an arena in which I view the actors and their collective beliefs. I am a spectator, but I have my own play in which I have an important supporting role — in a different organization where I volunteer.
In that organization, I hear no claims to inspiration, all the high ideals attached at God, leaders installed by the “finger of the Lord” — and when people don’t follow through, I see it more as a problem native to volunteer organizations than something about which I should become disillusioned.
Try looking at the church the same way as a volunteer organization where there can be sloppiness, mistakes, and problems that require forbearance. Be thankful for what you get out of the experience, and what people DO undertake.
I personally have problems with that in a church that extracts so much from me, and appears to give so little in return on delivering its promises. On the other hand, it might work for you in this context. This attitude of low expecations works very well for me in non-church volunteer contexts.
i can see that my post was entirely too long for people to understand and follow very well—but I appreciate that you all seemed to understand that I was hurting—and that is what I really need a lot of times
just someone to listen, and understand how I feel without telling me I am wrong for however i feel. Kindly pointing out various other things is good too. I think I can see the bishop’s what the bishop was thinking when he kept giving me bits and pieces each time I called. he was trying to avoid what he thought would hurt my feelings—and wanted to know what I had done wrong. I can only make something right with another person/persons, I may have offended if i know I have offended them.He asked me to talk to him instead of going to RS—but he made absolutely no sense about what what he was referring to when he kept telling me that he wanted me to come to him first if I had a problem about something—and I kept trying to tell him I had already talked to him about MOST of these things. So I left there feeling baffled, and like I was being reprimanded for something, but didn’t know what it was. The thought in my head as I left was that I never wanted to come back to my ward again. This ward has already been such a struggle for us–and I grew up in this ward, and came back to the ward when i was getting divorced and had 2 small children.
I am willing look at what his intentions where over last weekend, and see that he was not trying to lie to me.
However, when my husband stopped coming to church, for the most part, after 20 yrs of being active. I asked the bishop a very specific question and he gave me an answer that was completely untrue. It would have been much easier if he had just said right from the start,” we discussed it as a bishopric and this is the decision we came too.” It is my obsessive compulsive personality, and the fact that the decision they made had pushed my struggling husband over the edge, that kept me questioning until I discovered the story was completely different than the original answer I had been given.
I guess i had just never imagined, in my mind, that a bishop would lie. I told him I expected him to be totally honest with me. I am sure time will heal my disillusionment, and hopefully my husband will come back eventually. But I know it won’t be while we have this bishopric—-and I even feel guilty for saying that. I have got to get over these guilt issues i get. a stake president once told me I had an overdeveloped sense of guilt.
Don’t get me wrong, just because i have a thing about honesty, doesn’t been I haven’t been totally honest in every word that came out of my mouth in this life—also, I’ve made more mistakes than I would ever care to admit.
Hearing the conference talk when Uchdorft said that our leaders are human and they make mistakes, has stuck in my mind–thank you for reminding it about it.
another thought—I believe that some people are given callings to help themselves grow, just as much as it is for them to serve. Since we were told that our leaders are imperfect and make mistakes—-is it wrong to talk to them about something you feel was a mistake, if you talk to them respectfully? Even if it is a leader with a position over your? I guess I am thinking that if no one ever says anything, it doesn’t help the learning and growing process—and sometimes the forgiving and loving process. I read your entire post. I am so sorry you are going through this. It stinks! I am still so angry with my current leadership and past leadership on a ward level. I served in a leadership position with these men and they really are very, very unaware of how their words and actions make people feel. They are trying to do their best and their skills and talents don’t seem to be the ones I need or value. I would never treat people the way I have been treated. I don’t believe the 50 times I shared my concern and worries in a non-confrontational manner made a bit of difference in their heads, but they get they have to be careful around me.
I have often wished people would share their hurt or concern because you may not be the only one. I had a phone call from the current leader that is now serving in my place. She is annoyed and frustrated with the same stuff and I am glad I did share my angst because it won’t be the first time they have heard of it. It will probably be taken as us crazy “feminist women”. Fine. I am fine with where I stand and do not need their validation. I just needed them to quit making my life painful. I feel I have taken that power away from them…they are just men.
Somewhere in a thread on this board is a discussion about sustaining leaders…I think it is from Mackay11. I found the definition of “sustain” very interesting. Maybe Ray or someone could guide you to that. One of the definitions is “endure” or something like that….I totally have sustained my leaders in that regard.
Again, so sorry. It really can be hurtful.
Decided to revisit this topic, but I want you to know it is no longer an issue for me–at least i am not dwelling on it, so i don’t think it is an issue, and my main goal is to forgive. But, I just had to tell something that was said in Sunday School shortly after I told the bishop that i felt partial truths were dishonest. Can’t even remember what the lesson it was . but something about honesty came up. the bishop attends the same sunday school class I do. During the discussion, the teacher happened to mention that she felt that telling partial truths was dishonest. I don’t think I even looked in the bishop’s direction. I do believe he is a good man and trying to do his best, just thought it was kind of funny that the teacher said to the class the same thing I had said to the bishop. I hope that he and i both grew a little from the experience. Christine
Life can be interesting. :thumbup:
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.