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SamBee wrote:
Actually I know someone who got sent to ARP for too many romance novels
Well I know plenty of temple “worthy” LDS women here in Utah that read romance novels without apparently feeling much, if any, guilt or shame about it. And why would they worry too much about it if no one has ever told them otherwise? Sure there are exceptions to every generalization especially with the leadership roulette that happens in the Church but to me there is no comparison between the over-the-top demonization and fear-mongering that goes on in the Church and LDS culture with regard to porn/nudity versus romance novels and masturbation. It is night and day for practical purposes.
I believe it is worth mentioning that not all porn is the same. I believe that there are levels of “degradation” (not sure of a better term for this) that might be apparent. I do believe that consumption of porn can have negative effects upon a person, their expectations, and their relationships. I believe that the frequency of the porn usage and the relative level of “degradation” can increase these negative effects. As a metaphor with alcohol, the more you drink (both in quantity and concentration) the more intoxicated you will likely become.
I also believe that each marriage or relationship has an understanding and expectation about faithfulness and what would breach that social contract. I do believe the church’s stance leads to an expectation of zero tolerance in regards to porn. This sometimes leads individuals to be very secretive about any porn use and this secrecy in turn only deepens the sense of betrayal if the other spouse ever finds out. I believe that it is especially unfortunate if this individual with secret porn use then becomes labeled as a porn addict and sent to addiction recovery (I do believe in porn/sex addiction but see that in much more clinical terms. We do not do ourselves any favors by using the term broadly to cover all consumers).
Bear wrote:
It has opened up the whole sex-talk in our relationship
I absolutely believe that open conversations between spouses or sexual partners is vital to more healthy relationship. Ultimately, I believe the goal is to have complete intimacy (recognizing that intimacy encompasses much more than just sex) with your partner. I believe this is best achieved with openness, communication, trust, vulnerability, etc.
Bear wrote:
I have come to view porn as almost everything else: Too much is bad.
I couldn’t agree more. I realized I couldn’t live the complete abstinence from porn road after 20 years of trying. I read a great article maybe on BCC about how trying to refrain was like a credit card bowed under pressure between your fingers, and as the pressure builds on the bowed side, there is an immediate snap to the opposite side. The analogy was that there was then a flood of porn use when the person did finally give in.
(I tried googling the article as it explained it better, but only got results for credit card porn sites)
I have had to navigate this new paradigm for the least few years when it was brought to light. There was a great openness and communication in our marriage about it. It was something we did together and was mutually beneficial. I have had to still limit myself and keep things in check whenever I notice it becoming something that happens too often on my own or interferes with other aspects of life.
Currently we are on a hiatus from it all together.
Roy wrote:
I also believe that each marriage or relationship has an understanding and expectation about faithfulness and what would breach that social contract. I do believe the church’s stance leads to an expectation of zero tolerance in regards to porn. This sometimes leads individuals to be very secretive about any porn use and this secrecy in turn only deepens the sense of betrayal if the other spouse ever finds out. I believe that it is especially unfortunate if this individual with secret porn use then becomes labeled as a porn addict and sent to addiction recovery (I do believe in porn/sex addiction but see that in much more clinical terms. We do not do ourselves any favors by using the term broadly to cover all consumers).
This is exactly where we were. It was heartbreaking for both of us in the beginning. There are and probably always will be issues there, even with complete open communication, there is no true absolution from breaking trust.
For those interested in apostolic backup, there was this from Elder Ballard in November of 2017: Quote:
Too many men and women suffer in silence because we have unintentionally demonized those who are addicted to pornography. Parents, family members, and friends can do much more to help those in trouble by being willing to listen and offer support and encouragement.https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/m-russell-ballard_questions-and-answers/
I mostly like this a lot. The one thing I don’t like about it is typical: it conflates addiction with compulsion in general.
An addiction is a compulsion driven mostly by past indulgence. Spending time “dry” and getting support to do so can be an effective way to treat it. But when a compulsion is driven mostly by mental illness or similar traits, or shame, or grief, or stress, or a medication, or really anything else, just spending time dry isn’t very effective. The compulsion usually comes right back. It’s best to find what’s driving it and address that – along with therapy intended to increase control over automatic thoughts and behaviors, such as CBT.
Don’t get me wrong, those things partly drive alcoholism and drug abuse, too, and need to be addressed when they do. Treatments based entirely on the “bad thing causes more of the bad thing” addiction model don’t have a great success rate. When, as with porn use, the addiction model usually doesn’t fit well at all, such interventions usually don’t work, and can backfire badly.
One thing Elder Ballard gets very right is trying to destigmatize porn use. Speaking of which…
Old Timer wrote:
Soaking people in shame never produces good fruits.
If this is an oblique reference to Nanette, or even just using a phrase from it, I love it.
It’s a good discussion to raise the point that some things work for some people, but not for others. Some things are more dangerous for some than for others. It is rarely black and white, or simple.
Bear wrote:
suffering from anxiety and general shame about sex (shame was 100% church induced, maybe also the anxiety).
having these types of experiences can lead a person to start taking things said at church, even from apostles and prophets, with a grain of salt.
Guidelines or good ideas should not be so absolute that no variation to individuals is allowed. Sometimes, despite their guidance, we find things in life that help us, and we should allow ourselves to do things our way, after great consideration for all factors.
Quote:Old Timer wrote:
Soaking people in shame never produces good fruits.
If this is an oblique reference to Nanette, or even just using a phrase from it, I love it.
It is my own summary of an amazing treatise on shame from Nanette. Phenomenal Netflix special by Hannah Gadsby. I recommend it highly.
Quote:Soaking people in shame never produces good fruits.
Shame pickled people fruits? What could go wrong?
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