A last ditch effort

[Anonymous]

Six months ago I found John’s hypothesis, HOW TO STAY IN THE LDS CHURCH. It gave me hope. I entered the honored honeymoon period. I recommended it to my friends. I told my bishop that he should keep copies on his office desk and hand them out to struggling members. I left copies beside my computer, in my oft-borrowed pickup truck, in my house, hoping my five TBM children might pick it up and realize that dad has issues with the One True Church. And therein lies the problem. Because of accessibility, I ended up reading it numerous times. I begin to reflect on the sin of omission. We used to talk about them in the church a lot. I began to see major flaws in John’s hypothesis, omissions as it were. Where was the subject of missions. Certainly for someone who has lost their faith, the idea of sending one of their loved ones off to a foreign (often dangerous) land seemed so cruel. We lost four missionaries in my mission in a terrible car crash, what if my sons never came home? I read the suggestion if you can’t pay 10% tithing, pay 5%. My brain asked what about 0%, what about giving to a skid-row mission, feeding people instead? And the interviews for temple recommends portion drove me up a wall. Could I answer in a half-truth. Could I question the existence of God, and still desire entry to a Holy Temple with his name on front? Talk about CogDis.

So here I am. Making a last ditch effort to StayLDS. Oddly enough, I can handle the flawed theology, the convoluted history, even the gross polygamy. My special breaking point, our beloved church never apologies for anything. How quickly the incident on Temple Lot of late could have ended. Apology, drop the charges, everyone forgets in a week. My sainted mother, taught me at her knee, the power in an apology. It is part of the human condition. Forget the church is perfect, the church is the people. And people learn (if they want friends, a marriage, good employment, sex, etc.) to say I’m sorry. I wonder if Joseph Smith ever learned this principle? I wonder if the church he founded is cut from the same cloth? Enough said. I don’t expect you to save me. I probably will leave the church. I’ve spent two-thirds of my life as Mormon, and to find a new trail, it just hurts so bad.

[Anonymous]

Hi George,

You provided a very long list of questions. Some are really questions in the form of complaints and grievances. We understand all of what you are talking about. We’re not really here to tell you you’re not right, or that your issues aren’t valid. You are right. Our very special focus for this community though is what YOU will do about it.

We all know the problems. It is very unlikely in the short term, perhaps even within our lifetimes, that the Church as a large organization will change to match our personal desires in every area. So what are WE going to do to adapt and move forward. How will we take responsibility for our own spiritual development?

Some decide it is best to leave. That is a valid adaptation. It works for some people. As you seem to indicate, it is hard to get Mormonism out of your system. It isn’t all bad. It isn’t all true or all false. That is what makes it so hard to drop.

The StayLDS community is for people who decide to keep some or all of our religious and spiritual heritage, and try to find a peaceful adaptation within the Church. We are working on changing our selves. We aren’t here to demand anything from top leaders, or even from our local congregations.

So that is the big question to ask yourself. If you are going to stay, how will you do it?

If you were not you, and you read your introduction, what would you recommend to that person?

You mentioned a breaking point is about the Church not apologizing for all the injustices you perceive. You don’t really list those in detail, but we know the controversies.

Did anything damage you directly? It might have. I don’t know. What does the Church as an organization headquartered in SLC owe an apology to George on StayLDS for?

For most people alive today who might post on this forum, the past problems have not damaged us, not really. That doesn’t make them cease to exist or be an issue, but what are we going to do? I can’t resurrect Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith and make him apologize to her in next General Conference in front of the whole Church (one of my personal issues). So what do I do? My answer was to forgive and accept the history as it is.

We are after solutions here. What do you propose might help you adapt to an active and peaceful participation, on a day-to-day basis in the here and now?

[Anonymous]

George wrote:

I don’t expect you to save me. I probably will leave the church. I’ve spent two-thirds of my life as Mormon, and to find a new trail, it just hurts so bad.

Welcome George and I hope to learn from your posts, as it seems you are further along the journey than I am in mine. Your last phrase is making me wonder what hurts so bad? Is it leaving what your family is still a part of or just the journey into the unknown? Can you share a little more about that (if you want to)?

Anyway. Thanks for taking time to post your thoughts.

[Anonymous]

George wrote:

… And the interviews for temple recommends portion drove me up a wall. Could I answer in a half-truth. Could I question the existence of God, and still desire entry to a Holy Temple with his name on front? Talk about CogDis.

Thank you for posting, George! I think you expressed yourself pretty well, though after I post this I’ll be going into the other areas of the board, hoping you have been able to post specific difficulties for discussion.

I would not answer the temple recommend questions in a “half-truth”, yet OTOH to be honest in my own heart is sufficient for me. I agree with John that unless I specifically want to dicuss at lenth my nuances of belief and doubt in the interview, there is usually no good reason to bring them up. Just answer them knowing that it is FAITH and the choice to believe that makes all the difference.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

George, I’m glad you came today. I think you expressed yourself very well. I also think that the friends who have responded so far have done so incredibly wisely, and I hope their insights are as meaningful to you as they have been to me.

One of the sentiments we sometimes express here is that it’s my church too, and nothing anybody says or does can take that away from me. They could excommunicate me or what have you, but still it’s my choice to keep coming back. Similarly, we sometimes speak of “my LDS religion”, meaning that the experience and the meaning are different for everybody. I make the mistake of assuming my 30 first years of LDS experience–with my judgmental, legalistic, arrogant flaws–applies to everybody else. And maybe to some degree it does apply to many others. But in reality it is my journey; those are my sins and sicknesses. So I can believe in my own way as long as I believe. As long as I don’t actively disbelieve in the priesthood (in spite of all the issues, dangers, and harm that’s done), I can remain an Elder of the Church and strengthen the Church in my own way.

Another sentiment we often express here is that you get to define your own LDS experience. Life is important and meaningful to you, and church shouldn’t detract from that. You can pay an honest and even a generous tithe without sending any of it to headquarters if that’s what you feel is good and holy; you are free. You can live the Word of Wisdom to maximize the health of your body and the clearness of your mind without falling into legalism and elitism. You can be a conscientious Latter-day Saint “according to the dictates of your own conscience”. After all, don’t “we believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things”? Isn’t They now revealing them to you?

Last of all, some of us feel that our tribe is our tribe, our garden is our garden, our lot is our lot, or our mission is our mission. Depending on how you look at it, that can be inspiring and empowering, or it can be discouraging and shackling. That’s why we are all here for each other: to point to the inspiring, empowering way.

I look forward to learning more from you. Welcome, brother.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

George wrote:

I don’t expect you to save me. I probably will leave the church. I’ve spent two-thirds of my life as Mormon, and to find a new trail, it just hurts so bad.

Welcome George and I hope to learn from your posts, as it seems you are further along the journey than I am in mine. Your last phrase is making me wonder what hurts so bad? Is it leaving what your family is still a part of or just the journey into the unknown? Can you share a little more about that (if you want to)?

Anyway. Thanks for taking time to post your thoughts.

You asked about hurt. Twelve members of my immediate family live in my ward. We occupy a complete pew (sometimes two) every Sunday. We pass our grand babies along the row. It’s a time any grandparents would love. Leaving the church puts me on the outside. As far as the journey into the unknown, I have researched the Unitarian-Universalist fellowship and like their efforts in social justice. Our church has fought the three major social advancements of my lifetime; black, women and gay civil rights. To facilitate these changes in my life at three score & ten, not easy. I lose the title Patriarch, though perhaps its just a title. If I gain my own integrity…

[Anonymous]

We live in an apology culture which is a fairly recent invention, but apologies don’t serve. Who should apologize to whom for what and to what end? Restitution is never really possible, and often the offenders are not the apologizers (because they are dead). For example, the Anglican church apologized in the last year to Charles Darwin. Immediately, his heirs said “It’s too late” and “It’s not enough”. And he’s already buried in Westminster Abbey, high Anglican honor (which was actually for sale back then). So, what was the point?

It is similar to Inigo Montoya and the six-fingered man in The Princess Bride. He finally corners the six-fingered man and asks him to beg for his life, but in the end it doesn’t matter because all Inigo really wants is his father back, and the six-fingered man can’t undo what he has done.

So, if you simply want an apology, here you go: I’m sorry for the pain you feel. I’m sorry people didn’t meet your expectations. I’m sorry it has contributed to your bitterness which causes you to get stuck spiritually.

If that apology doesn’t work for you, none will. We all have to find our own way to let go of what hurts us.

[Anonymous]

Ooooh, Hawkgrrrl’s dishin’ out Tough Love! (that’s prolly a copyrighted thing, but, whatever)

That’s Truth, all right. Only the toughest of us can take it *that* straight.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

We live in an apology culture which is a fairly recent invention, but apologies don’t serve. Who should apologize to whom for what and to what end? Restitution is never really possible, and often the offenders are not the apologizers (because they are dead). For example, the Anglican church apologized in the last year to Charles Darwin. Immediately, his heirs said “It’s too late” and “It’s not enough”. And he’s already buried in Westminster Abbey, high Anglican honor (which was actually for sale back then). So, what was the point?

It is similar to the Inigo Montoya and the six-fingered man in The Princess Bride. He finally corners him and asks him to beg for his life, but in the end it doesn’t matter because all he really wants is his father back, and he can’t undo what he has done.

So, if you simply want an apology, here you go: I’m sorry for the pain you feel. I’m sorry people didn’t meet your expectations. I’m sorry it has contributed to your bitterness which causes you to get stuck spiritually.

If that apology doesn’t work for you, none will. We all have to find our own way to let go of what hurts us.

Hi Hawkgirl, Thanks for the apology, but you havn’t offended me. Corporate church offended. I don’t like the coverup of our church history. I don’t like distancing ourselves from the FLDS, when it was our founder that introduced their system of marriage. I don’t like having to tell my convert SIL, that Joseph Smith did have 33 wives (he’s only been in the church twenty years and had never heard it). I expect honesty from our leaders. And when we screw up (and we all do), there is power in an apology. To never make an apology sounds arrogant. Maybe, even a positive affirmation, that our faith community is abandoning polygamy in eternity. How would that hurt our membership today? I believe my sisters and daughters and grand daughters would love to hear it over the pulpit, in the Ensign, etc.

[Anonymous]

Valoel wrote:

For most people alive today who might post on this forum, the past problems have not damaged us, not really.

While the core attitude of this statement is sound and healthy, it probably isn’t true in a mental health or childhood experience sense that the past problems have not damaged us. It’s very likely that remnants of the Utah Reformation, Mountain Meadows Massacre, Persecution mythology, Priesthood ban apologetics, and Lying for the (Polygamy) Lord are in our psychological makeup and have damaged us and our loved ones. These are things to be addressed squarely, frankly, and hopefully rather than denied.

[Anonymous]

George wrote:

Thanks for the apology, but you havn’t offended me. Corporate church offended. I don’t like the coverup of our church history. I don’t like distancing ourselves from the FLDS, when it was our founder that introduced their system of marriage. I don’t like having to tell my convert SIL, that Joseph Smith did have 33 wives (he’s only been in the church twenty years and had never heard it). I expect honesty from our leaders. And when we screw up (and we all do), there is power in an apology. Maybe even a positive affirmation, that our faith community is abandoning polygamy, in eternity. How would that hurt our membership today? I believe my sisters and daughters and grand daughters would love to hear it over the pulpit, in the Ensign, etc.

Yes. There is power in apology. Miraculous power. The power lies in the sub-meaning of forgiveness. Yes, every issue you counted is deeply, harmfully, offensively, abominably true. And you and I have the power and the choice to apologize to the church for holding all that abomination against them. We have the power to see the corporate church, the seed of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, as a wounded child, and to forgive it, nurture it, love it, and show it a better way.

[Anonymous]

But if the corporate church continues to injure, and we continue to forgive, then are we in league with it, compliant? I understand seventy times seven, I just find a problem with the assumption that Christ was then talking about his own creation, the One True Church. I’m at three score and ten, I’ve sat quietly in the pew for half a century. Do I leave my treasured posterity (20 in number) without seeing the promise land you allude to? How long will they wait? Or do I suggest that a different path up the mountain might be less cluttered? I don’t currently speak ill of the church to them, but I do testify about grace and the teachings of a carpenter named Jesus. If there was never a Moroni, shouldn’t we move on?

[Anonymous]

Hi George,

I don’t have many answers. All I can say is that if I was in your ward, I would want you to stay. You sound nice. When our state was trying to pass a constitutional ban on gay marriages I refused to take part. In fact, I contributed funds to the fight against the constitutional ban. I wasn’t silent about how I felt, but I wasn’t shouting from the roof tops, either. It would have been totally cool to have one of the patriarchs in the ward agree with me.

I believe that a voice of charity, tolerance, and compassion is always welcome in the LDS conversation. Remember, WE are the church. Things are changing, it just takes time. But I think we will all be amazed at how the pace of change will speed up. The coming generations are totally digital. When they have questions they turn to google, not us. They are mere key strokes away from the good and bad of church history, sites like this, and many others. How comforting it would be to know that, after finding this info, they could turn to someone like you who has been there, done that, and can offer some perspective……..

[Anonymous]

I love your post. I love your questions. I am glad I get to talk with you about them. Because they are the Important Questions of life. How often shall my brother sin against me every day and I forgive him? If the corporate church continues to injury, and we continue to forgive, then are we in league with it, complicit?

Does forgiveness=complicity? Very interesting. Very, very interesting. We have spoken on other threads about how in a way each of us is complicit in the evils of the world. After all, we agreed to come here and offend each other (after a manner of speaking). One thought has been that before coming, we signed a disclaimer that no matter how bad it got, we would not cry foul. So suppose from the outset perhaps we are complicit. Wow! That’s a blow to my false self! After all, I am a Good Guy! I am so, so, so glad you are asking these questions. These are the things that really matter.

pinkpatent wrote:

WE are the church. Things are changing, it just takes time. But I think we will all be amazed at how the pace of change will speed up. The coming generations are totally digital. When they have questions they turn to google, not us.

Beautiful words!

Tom

[Anonymous]

pinkpatent wrote:

Hi George,

I don’t have many answers. All I can say is that if I was in your ward, I would want you to stay. You sound nice. When our state was trying to pass a constitutional ban on gay marriages I refused to take part. In fact, I contributed funds to the fight against the constitutional ban. I wasn’t silent about how I felt, but I wasn’t shouting from the roof tops, either. It would have been totally cool to have one of the patriarchs in the ward agree with me.

I believe that a voice of charity, tolerance, and compassion is always welcome in the LDS conversation. Remember, WE are the church. Things are changing, it just takes time. But I think we will all be amazed at how the pace of change will speed up. The coming generations are totally digital. When they have questions they turn to google, not us. They are mere key strokes away from the good and bad of church history, sites like this, and many others. How comforting it would be to know that, after finding this info, they could turn to someone like you who has been there, done that, and can offer some perspective……..

Pinkpatent,

Thank you for your kind words. And concerning prop 8 (I live in California too). I stood with my ‘NO’ sign at the main crossroads in town, while one of my grand daughters stood with her ‘YES’ sign across the street. Finally a high official in our church came across and stood next to me. I asked him if the LDS church could ever go back to the comradeship we had prior to this divisive issue. He thought for a moment and then “No.” He had given $300,000 to the cause, so it is obvious as to his level of commitment. I did find other members in the ward who agreed with me. We often slipped out of Sacrament when the talk/testimonies got to offensive. Wish you had been

there…. Shalom.

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