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Prop 8…not my state. I live in a different city of trees! 
Tom Haws wrote:I love your post. I love your questions. I am glad I get to talk with you about them. Because they are the Important Questions of life. How often shall my brother sin against me every day and I forgive him? If the corporate church continues to injury, and we continue to forgive, then are we in league with it, complicit?
Does forgiveness=complicity? Very interesting. Very, very interesting. We have spoken on other threads about how in a way each of us is complicit in the evils of the world. After all, we agreed to come here and offend each other (after a manner of speaking). One thought has been that before coming, we signed a disclaimer that no matter how bad it got, we would not cry foul. So suppose from the outset perhaps we are complicit. Wow! That’s a blow to my false self! After all, I am a Good Guy! I am so, so, so glad you are asking these questions. These are the things that really matter.
pinkpatent wrote:WE are the church. Things are changing, it just takes time. But I think we will all be amazed at how the pace of change will speed up. The coming generations are totally digital. When they have questions they turn to google, not us.
Beautiful words!
And thank you Tom, for listening to me and my questions. Many in the church have little patience with me. Twice during prop 8 I was asked pointedly, “And so you don’t support the Prophet?” I could but reference the two great commandments of Jesus. I came close to getting punched in the face. Notes were left on my pickup and bumper stickers torn from my car. Your thought, “the pace of change will speed up” gives me hope. My dad lived till 95, perhaps I will witness a marvelous and a wonder. The question is, will I then be worshipping down the street? My choice I know, mine alone.
Tom
George wrote:I don’t currently speak ill of the church to them, but I do testify about grace and the teachings of a carpenter named Jesus.
George, I really like this approach! Focusing on Christ as the foundation of all that we do is the safest and least cluttered path up the mountain.
George wrote:If there was never a Moroni, shouldn’t we move on?
I don’t necessarily think so. Whether Moroni was physically alive, or just a vision in someone’s head, what a great message was received through that process. There is value in the message for me, and I choose to take what parts are of value in making me a better person and focus on those.
Here’s another example of where I have come through because of my time of doubting and questioning and studying things:
If we are building a ship to survive a journey, and it is all closed up to protect us from the waves, and then my brother comes to me with some glowing rocks and says: “Hey, Christ touched these rocks, and they will give us all the light we need for our journey.” I’d say, great! Perhaps I don’t believe God’s finger did this, but the result is we have light to see in our journey.
Next time we need some light, will rocks be the best way? Probably not, I can probably think of a better way for light in my next unique circumstance. But the rocks or ships are not as important as the lesson that we can receive light and direction from God.
Future generations don’t need to get rid of light bulbs and only use rocks, there are better ways, but the point is – the symbolism of seeking God’s light, and that He will show me the way, and He will show me his love is of great value in relating the story of Mohonri Moriancmr, regardless of the details around ships and rocks and lights.
I want to start viewing the church on a more deeply spiritual and symbolic level to what it means to me and my family. Pursuing historical details on church events or Joseph Smith is interesting, but does not provide me with value going forward to lead my family to happiness. Teachings of Christ found in the bible, Book of Mormon, and church lessons do that for me, regardless of what church leaders do that I disagree with. Christ is the chief cornerstone. The Church’s stance on SSM is something for me to think about, but does not impact my relationship with Christ.
What are some of the family values the church teaches that have meant the most to you? My fav is family can be together forever when sealed in God’s Holy Temples. That is my hope.
Heber13 wrote:Whether Moroni was physically alive, or just a vision in someone’s head, what a great message was received through that process. There is value in the message for me, and I choose to take what parts are of value in making me a better person and focus on those.
Heber13, I am getting to really appreciate your contributions.
Re: value in the message
I don’t tend to think that on balance there is really a whole lot of value added in the bargain. That doesn’t mean there is no value. Just no value added. And perhaps there is even value subtracted in the total bargain. That’s my base assumption in approaching the relationship, and it may be what George is cogitating. The bottom line as I evaluate “their fruits” is nice enough, but just not relatively impressive. My “correlated”
Just an example: On election night, when Obama went over the top, DH and I sat staring at the television in awe. We live in a RED state, I mean RED. I had voted for Obama knowing that my vote wouldn’t count, but I was hopeful that the rest of the country would pull together.
Anyway, I started crying. I just couldn’t believe that a person of color had been elected president. I never thought I would see it in my lifetime, let alone before menopause! The truly wonderous part of it all was our DC. They couldn’t figure out why I was so overcome with emotion. They were like, “What’s the big deal? He’s just a guy.”
That was the moment I realized that my DC are color blind. DH and I had done something right! The same has proven true with other divisive issues. DC have friends with gay siblings or parents. Its just all becoming so mainstream. These issues will only divide the church if we let them. I am believing, but DH is disaffected.
I could have let that divide us, but I let him know that I wasn’t going anywhere❗ The same can be true with the church. If those with dissenting view points refuse to leave, then eventually their voices will be heard. Do I think the church will ever sanction gay marriage? No. But, I think a day of reconcilliation is coming. It starts with US. It can start right now.Heber13 wrote:George wrote:I don’t currently speak ill of the church to them, but I do testify about grace and the teachings of a carpenter named Jesus.
George, I really like this approach! Focusing on Christ as the foundation of all that we do is the safest and least cluttered path up the mountain.
George wrote:If there was never a Moroni, shouldn’t we move on?
I don’t necessarily think so. Whether Moroni was physically alive, or just a vision in someone’s head, what a great message was received through that process. There is value in the message for me, and I choose to take what parts are of value in making me a better person and focus on those.
Here’s another example of where I have come through because of my time of doubting and questioning and studying things:
If we are building a ship to survive a journey, and it is all closed up to protect us from the waves, and then my brother comes to me with some glowing rocks and says: “Hey, Christ touched these rocks, and they will give us all the light we need for our journey.” I’d say, great! Perhaps I don’t believe God’s finger did this, but the result is we have light to see in our journey.
Next time we need some light, will rocks be the best way? Probably not, I can probably think of a better way for light in my next unique circumstance. But the rocks or ships are not as important as the lesson that we can receive light and direction from God.
Future generations don’t need to get rid of light bulbs and only use rocks, there are better ways, but the point is – the symbolism of seeking God’s light, and that He will show me the way, and He will show me his love is of great value in relating the story of Mohonri Moriancmr, regardless of the details around ships and rocks and lights.
I want to start viewing the church on a more deeply spiritual and symbolic level to what it means to me and my family. Pursuing historical details on church events or Joseph Smith is interesting, but does not provide me with value going forward to lead my family to happiness. Teachings of Christ found in the bible, Book of Mormon, and church lessons do that for me, regardless of what church leaders do that I disagree with. Christ is the chief cornerstone. The Church’s stance on SSM is something for me to think about, but does not impact my relationship with Christ.
What are some of the family values the church teaches that have meant the most to you?
My fav is family can be together forever when sealed in God’s Holy Temples. That is my hope.
My hope also. As I age however, I find myself holding more to the grace promised of our Lord, than to the insignificant works of man. My grandparents were non-members. I remember granny often singing, “Shall the circle be unbroken?” Likewise, her belief/hope that we would all stand on that beautiful shore. The temple has become a ‘beach’ for me, my view of the Celestial Kingdom has become more Native American (my mother’s culture). Standing next us, good people of every race and color and faith community. Polygamy has left my view, and racism was fortunately never there. My gay son will stand with us as well.
George wrote:As I age however, I find myself holding more to the grace promised of our Lord, than to the insignificant works of man.
Very profound! Thanks for your words of wisdom. I believe this too.
George wrote:The temple has become a ‘beach’ for me, my view of the Celestial Kingdom has become more Native American (my mother’s culture). Standing next us, good people of every race and color and faith community. Polygamy has left my view, and racism was fortunately never there. My gay son will stand with us as well.
That’s a great vision.
If you stayed attending sacrament meetings with all your grandkids (a truly beautiful opportunity you don’t want to miss), couldn’t you still believe you’ll all be on that beach scene together?
What does not being there on Sunday with your family achieve? (by the way…I admire your devotion to your family! Thanks for that example.)
Quote:Hi Hawkgirl, Thanks for the apology, but you havn’t offended me. Corporate church offended.
Great, who in corporate church should apologize for what specifically? Because “corporate church” isn’t a person. I AM a person, a tithe-paying member of the corporate church. Therefore, I have apologized on behalf of it. Not good enough? Ask yourself why not.
Quote:I don’t like the coverup of our church history.
No one here does.
Quote:I don’t like distancing ourselves from the FLDS, when it was our founder that introduced their system of marriage.
Here I can’t quite agree with you. I like the distance.
Quote:I don’t like having to tell my convert SIL, that Joseph Smith did have 33 wives (he’s only been in the church twenty years and had never heard it).
Why not? And why didn’t your SIL know? What exactly do you suggest church leaders do? To what end would this information be shared, since polygamy was abandoned over 100 years ago?
Quote:I expect honesty from our leaders.
I expect sincerity, which I feel they meet. Go back 20 years, and many of them were probably not aware of JS’s wives. Some of this information was not widely researched or known until more recently.
Quote:And when we screw up (and we all do), there is power in an apology.
Yes, for the apologizer, but not for the one receiving it. To be hung up on receiving an apology is to be hung up on being right, not a very high spiritual ideal.
Quote:To never make an apology sounds arrogant.
Granted, but what is that to you? So, someone else is arrogant. How exactly does that affect you? Only however you let it. To require an apology is also arrogant.
Quote:Maybe, even a positive affirmation, that our faith community is abandoning polygamy, in eternity. How would that hurt our membership today? I believe my sisters and daughters and grand daughters would love to hear it over the pulpit, in the Ensign, etc.
I would certainly love this, too, but if it doesn’t happen, I can also assume it hasn’t happened for either neutral or benevolent reasons. I don’t have to assume that it’s because some misogynist on a power trip is too arrogant to let go of his polygamist fantasies.
You said before I hadn’t offended you. Hopefully that is still the case, but if I have, my apologies.
George wrote:Tom Haws wrote:I love your post. I love your questions. I am glad I get to talk with you about them. Because they are the Important Questions of life. How often shall my brother sin against me every day and I forgive him? If the corporate church continues to injury, and we continue to forgive, then are we in league with it, complicit?
Does forgiveness=complicity? Very interesting. Very, very interesting. We have spoken on other threads about how in a way each of us is complicit in the evils of the world. After all, we agreed to come here and offend each other (after a manner of speaking). One thought has been that before coming, we signed a disclaimer that no matter how bad it got, we would not cry foul. So suppose from the outset perhaps we are complicit. Wow! That’s a blow to my false self! After all, I am a Good Guy! I am so, so, so glad you are asking these questions. These are the things that really matter.
pinkpatent wrote:WE are the church. Things are changing, it just takes time. But I think we will all be amazed at how the pace of change will speed up. The coming generations are totally digital. When they have questions they turn to google, not us.
Beautiful words!
And thank you Tom, for listening to me and my questions. Many in the church have little patience with me. Twice during prop 8 I was asked pointedly, “And so you don’t support the Prophet?” I could but reference the two great commandments of Jesus. I came close to getting punched in the face. Notes were left on my pickup and bumper stickers torn from my car. Your thought, “the pace of change will speed up” gives me hope. My dad lived till 95, perhaps I will witness a marvelous work and a wonder. The question is, will I then be worshipping down the street? My choice I know, mine alone.
Tom
Wow, staylds just got interesting!!!! 😈 I agree with Tom, past hurts do linger; there are still open wounds festering. Ignorance is not bliss. Time does not heal all wounds.
@George:
First off, welcome. Your post is definitely in the sweet spot of what this forum is all about. Please continue to share. There are lots of past threads that delve deeply into what your concerns/issues/life are all about.
I want to say that I was moved deeply by your post. In fact, being half your age, I found myself acknowledging a feeling I’ve had recently: I’m so thankful that I’m going through this now rather than 30 years later. That’s callous but I think it struck me as an opportunity: it doesn’t matter what age, the importance is the ability to discover new, deeper feelings, deeper emotion, experience things previously unexperienced. What an opportunity!!! I think your situation is exciting and I know that’s the last thing you think that it is.
My two cents: everything you said resonated with me. I actually took the final step to resign from the church so that I could continue my activity. (How’s that for CogDis
I felt to continue my experience as “Mormon”, I had to officially dissolve my “formal” association. This was over Prop 8. Now, I am free to approach my experience with the church completely on my terms. I have to literally volunteer to do service, since I won’t be getting called. I can attend meetings without any expectations put on me and without any expectations from myself projected onto those giving talks, lessons, etc. I pay tithing to my charity of choice (Give to Cystic Fibrosis!). And my two young boys now know that truth and happiness come from anywhere and everywhere.
This is not the “way”. Like others have said, this is MY WAY. And mine alone. And, I hope, you can find “your way” and please share it with us as you discover it!
George, I too extend my welcome. I am really just trying to get you in the “batter’s box” to deal with this apology issue. This is an important issue for many, and it really gets in the way of spiritual growth. It’s not about the offender. It’s not about the apology. It’s about the need to be right. Needing to be right stalls spiritual growth. Look at all the people at church who think they are right about everything if you want to see a great example of its power to stunt spiritual development.
Regardless, welcome to the site, and I hope you enjoy the conversation here and find what you are seeking.
Everyone’s posting so fast! I want to add an experience that George alluded to. When I had the talk with my bishop and gave him my letter of resignation, I told him something that I’m not sure I had ever felt in my life up to that point (35yrs orthodox TBM): I was giving my life and soul to Christ. I was truly at His mercy. It was no longer the church, the doctrine/dogma, the covenants, the testimony, the obedience, the guilt, the fear. It was just little old me and my Savior. That’s all. He was going to take me or leave me. And I felt His love at the moment, stronger than anything I had ever felt, that He would have me. He would take me. All the crap left me (mostly) and I no longer felt the intense bitterness, anger and resentment to the church and the people and my parents and my in-laws and the brethren and JS and BY and BYU and, and, and…… Anyway, just a thought, FOR WHAT ITS WORTH
😆 Thanks to all who have welcomed me to StayLDS. I have enjoyed our discussion, though I was fearful (being the new guy on the block) I might get banded as a trouble maker. I’m a softy, not a trouble maker. I babysit my grandkids two, three nights a week. I also go with my gay son to his favorite drinking hole (DietCoke please) occasionally. I’m trying to stay. But I must make my own decisions on my level of involvement, if I try the ‘platter’ approach. And to Hawkgrrrl, about those members who must be absolute right about everything, I have a private name: Nazi-Mormons.
Shalom to all.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Quote:I don’t like distancing ourselves from the FLDS, when it was our founder that introduced their system of marriage.
Here I can’t quite agree with you. I like the distance.
You forgot your smiley!
George wrote:I’m trying to stay. But I must make my own decisions on my level of involvement, if I try the ‘platter’ approach.
I think what is nice about this forum is that we aren’t here to tell you to stay or not stay or put pressure on you, but if you share how you make up your mind, it might help others learn by challenging each other and discussing how we feel.
I think it also helps to know it doesn’t have to be one or the other, stay in our get out…there can be a middle way. It is whatever leads to peace. It has definitely been a good discussion today.
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