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BBC Radio have a weekly Sunday service from an Anglican Church. This week their theme was on doubt. I found parts of it useful. Quote:
Thomas, one of Jesus’ 12 disciples knew what he wanted to do with his doubts. His other friends had told him that they had seen Jesus, risen from the grave and alive. For Thomas they were either lying or delusional. ‘My doubt will die’, he said, ‘when and if I can put my finger in the marks of the nails which held him to the cross until he died, and put my hand into the spear wound in his side which was intended to guarantee that the body hanging there really was dead. I want irrefutable proof, and then I’ll believe’.Where do doubts go to die? From the experience of Christians throughout the centuries it seems that doubts never completely die. There is always just one more child that gets sick and God should have stopped it from happening; one more accident, one more natural disaster which makes people ask, ‘Where’s God? If he exists at all’.
Michael Novak, the American novelist and diplomat writes, ‘Doubt is not so much a dividing line that separates people into different camps, as it is a razor’s edge which runs through every soul’. Believers doubt their beliefs. Unbelievers doubt their unbelief. A man told me recently, ‘I’m an atheist’, he said, ‘but I have my doubts’.
…
At its heart faith is a matter of trust. Doubt can be the enemy of trust or, properly used, it can become the friend of trust. As an enemy, it can stop us from becoming committed to anyone or anything. For that reason some people love it and hold on to the principle of doubt. That can so easily excuse us from having to make the tough decisions of life.
Yet as a friend, doubt can help me in the search for truth and certainty. I’m not the first person to ask the question, ‘Who made God?’ Theologians, philosophers and Christian apologists have been wrestling with the great questions of life throughout the centuries. Many have worked through these kind of issues and are persuaded to believe.
…
Doubt has been described as the shadow side of faith. It gives it perspective and makes it stand out. But shadows are at their longest when the sun is closest to the horizon. When the sun is overhead then there are hardly any shadows at all. That compares precisely to our spiritual experience. When we keep Jesus at the margins of our lives then the shadows of doubt and confusion are at their longest. When he is ‘overhead’, close by, then the shadows are at their least. This was surely Thomas’ experience. He was so fortunate to be able to have his doubts eradicated by one single momentous experience.
Yes, we need to look at the evidence to decide if we find it convincing. Yes, we need to open ourselves to an experience of God, so that we can be fully persuaded. However difficult the issues are, we are the ones who make the decision either to commit ourselves to the risk or to hold back, either to continue to work through the issues or to walk away. Interestingly, despite all of the complexities associated with faith Jesus never said to his hearers, ‘Believe my arguments’, but he did say, ‘Follow me’.
It’s worth reading the full transcript here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rqgyx A nice reassurance that all faiths and even those of no faith have to go through life and deal with doubt.
Thanks for sharing this mackay11. My husband and I regularly attend a United Church of Christ now in Port Orange, Florida. This past Sunday’s sermon was on ‘Doubting Thomas” and I love how this pastor presented it. My husband, who is a research scientist said that the words “Fear and Courage” go together because having the courage to do something does not mean you are not afraid still. “Courage is Faith under control” Then the words ‘doubt and faith’ go together because even though you make act on faith, doesn’t mean you still don’t have doubts. Faith is Doubt under control. This pastor said that everyone goes through out life having doubts and that all of us can relate to “Doubting Thomas” at times. He was not a bad person that Jesus punished or chastised for doubting. In fact Thomas was one of the most valiant stalwarts who was willing to die for Jesus after he was sure. So to me, ‘doubt, is not a negative thing when we are testing something out to know if it is based on truth. My husband said that ‘doubt’ has been the motivation for many discoveries in science. Too many religious people ‘drink the cool-aid’ just believing and it can kill you. So, I agree with what Joseph Smith wrote/said “That faith is believing in something that is true.” I think this whole story about Doubting Thomas was more about “Trust”. As children, we may have doubts about what our parents are telling us to do, but because we ‘trust’ our parents, we believe what they say and do it anyway.
Easter Sunday. I was quite discouraged, disillusioned, and despairing in my hope in Christ during the night as I could find no relief from all the arthritic pain I was having in my knees, hands, and legs. I felt so empty inside, wondering why all the prayers, and healing Jesus offers were not working for me. I did not even feel God’s love or presence for me in the night. But, with all my pain I was still having when I woke up, I got ready and went to the UCC church Easter morning. The pastor gave just the right sermon for me! He talked about the Resurrection being like the previews you get in the movie theater of coming attractions. He spoke of how all our tears, pain, and disillusionment will be gone when we die and go into the next life to be with Jesus. In this life will be tribulation, but Christ’s resurrection gives us the great hope that all the pain of aging, and life will turn into joy when we are resurrected with our new bodies and see our Savior. My hope in Christ became renewed that Easter morning and I was able to endure the trials of life that day. This pastor always brings the gospel to life with humor and stories that relate to our daily lives. Then their wonderful choir sang, “Handel’s Messiah”. Very up lifting Easter morning. God often answers my prayers in church and by being around other Christians.
bridget_night wrote:God often answers my prayers in church and by being around other Christians.
Amen Bridget! I fully accept that some people can find better answers/fit in other churches than in the LDS (and I bemoan when people who don’t seem very nice find such great answers/fit in the LDS). I am very glad that this community has given you what you are looking for. That is a blessing and I believe it comes from God – in other words “light and truth.”
Thank you Roy for those comments. I also liked these quotes you have at the bottom of your name: “It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness.” C. A. Elwood “It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
“I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene” Heber13
I so do look forward to the day when ‘we come to a unity of faith’ so one religion does not compare itself to another religion and think it is right and the other is wrong. There is an older woman at this UCC church who has a Mormon daughter who has a gay son. There is so much stress over the daughter not only trying to convert her mom to Mormonism, but trying to change her gay son. This grandma is reading my book right now and wondered how I dealt with being a Mormon and having a gay son. I just told her to try and find all the things they can agree on and what they have in common. The lds church leaders are trying to teach it’s members to have more tolerance for non Mormons but I believe Jesus did not say ‘be more tolerant of one another, but love one another more.”
mackay11 wrote:Where do doubts go to die? From the experience of Christians throughout the centuries it seems that doubts never completely die. There is always just one more child that gets sick and God should have stopped it from happening; one more accident, one more natural disaster which makes people ask, ‘Where’s God? If he exists at all’.
Michael Novak, the American novelist and diplomat writes, ‘Doubt is not so much a dividing line that separates people into different camps, as it is a razor’s edge which runs through every soul’. Believers doubt their beliefs. Unbelievers doubt their unbelief. A man told me recently, ‘I’m an atheist’, he said, ‘but I have my doubts’.
…
At its heart faith is a matter of trust. Doubt can be the enemy of trust or, properly used, it can become the friend of trust. As an enemy, it can stop us from becoming committed to anyone or anything. For that reason some people love it and hold on to the principle of doubt. That can so easily excuse us from having to make the tough decisions of life.
Yet as a friend, doubt can help me in the search for truth and certainty. I’m not the first person to ask the question, ‘Who made God?’ Theologians, philosophers and Christian apologists have been wrestling with the great questions of life throughout the centuries. Many have worked through these kind of issues and are persuaded to believe.
Thank you so much for this, mackay11. I’m actually pretty comfortable with all my doubts about God’s existence, Christ’s reality and role. I find so many ways to send those doubts off to die. Doubts about Joseph Smith’s integrity are a different story. Do I have any business being a member of this church when I have no confidence in him?
Quote:I believe Jesus did not say ‘be more tolerant of one another”, but “love one another more.”
I agree (although I would say Jesus said both, while not being tolerant of extremes), and it was really good to hear that wording more than once this General Conference, including in Pres. Monson’s closing remarks.
This is a good piece. Faith and doubt are connected – faith is belief without tangible proof and doubt is disbelief without proof but they are not necessarily opposites. But I think Anglican leaders – including bishops – have themselves been guilty of “giving forth an uncertain sound” at times though. I think this is a complication of being a state church.
“Unbelievers doubt their unbelief. A man told me recently, ‘I’m an atheist’, he said,
‘but I have my doubts’. …”
Yep but that’s agnosticism not atheism. Most so called atheists are agnostics…
bridget_night wrote:Thank you Roy for those comments. I also liked these quotes you have at the bottom of your name: “It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness.” C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
“I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene” Heber13
Thank you Bridget. they are certainly autobiographical. I guess I had an existential crisis wondering what the meaning of life was and if there was any proof that the LDS “plan of salvation” was anything more than a good theory. Of course – I have yet to find any proof. But a life devoid of meaning and hope is
notsomething that I am willing to accept. And so I move forward creating my own meaning and pray that in the final analysys – when I lay my life’s work at the feet of my God – that He might find it acceptable and forgive my doubts. Lord, I believe. Help me in my unbelief. Hi Roy, in relation to the Plan of Salvation, surely the following are definitely true: * Living the gospel properly involves treating others better, which increases social harmony and integration.
* Family history shifts our focus away from us as isolated individuals and places us in a complex human framework and relates us to many others.
* Temple work reminds us we are part of a long chain of existence.
* Avoiding regular intoxication is good for you physically.
* Staying out of debt is good.
These all come under the plan. Few can dispute them fully.
SamBee wrote:Hi Roy, in relation to the Plan of Salvation, surely the following are definitely true:
* Living the gospel properly involves treating others better, which increases social harmony and integration.
* Family history shifts our focus away from us as isolated individuals and places us in a complex human framework and relates us to many others.
* Temple work reminds us we are part of a long chain of existence.
* Avoiding regular intoxication is good for you physically.
* Staying out of debt is good.
These all come under the plan. Few can dispute them fully.
Yup, all of these things are good – but they do not do anything to prove that people that are born to short painful lives that are all to quickly snuffed out have meaning and consequence.
Please do not think that I disagree with you – I believe that these lives do matter, but I ultimately have to take it on faith. I use this faith as a shield to fend off the shadow of nihilism. It is that faith that gives me the courage that President Harold B. Lee speaks of to “go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” I hold to this faith even though I am not expecting a future divine intervention moment (like the second coming, rapture, and subsequent millennium) that would prove my faith correct. I look to my faith as its own reward…. even if I am wrong.
Ann wrote:
Thank you so much for this, mackay11. I’m actually pretty comfortable with all my doubts about God’s existence, Christ’s reality and role. I find so many ways to send those doubts off to die. Doubts about Joseph Smith’s integrity are a different story. Do I have any business being a member of this church when I have no confidence in him?If you set the JS doubts to one side for a second, does the church structure and principles lead you towards or away from God and Jesus Christ? Is the vehicle pointing in the right direction? Are you happy with its speed?
If not, if you think there’s a better vehicle, maybe you’re right. But most religions have baggage. The founder of the religion in the OP (Henry VIII) founded the Church of England (Anglicans) so he could divorce his first wife. He later beheaded his second. He persecuted and executed Catholics later.
A relative of mine joined the church with no testimony of Joseph/the Book of Mormon, in fact she was a sceptic of the foundational stories. She simply recognised it was a good vehicle towards God and lived the principles. She has read most of the critics. She now has found more confidence in Joseph. But it took over 20 years!
Thank you, McKay. I truly enjoyed reading that. mackay11 wrote:Ann wrote:
Thank you so much for this, mackay11. I’m actually pretty comfortable with all my doubts about God’s existence, Christ’s reality and role. I find so many ways to send those doubts off to die. Doubts about Joseph Smith’s integrity are a different story. Do I have any business being a member of this church when I have no confidence in him?If you set the JS doubts to one side for a second, does the church structure and principles lead you towards or away from God and Jesus Christ? Is the vehicle pointing in the right direction? Are you happy with its speed?
If not, if you think there’s a better vehicle, maybe you’re right. But most religions have baggage. The founder of the religion in the OP (Henry VIII) founded the Church of England (Anglicans) so he could divorce his first wife. He later beheaded his second. He persecuted and executed Catholics later.
A relative of mine joined the church with no testimony of Joseph/the Book of Mormon, in fact she was a sceptic of the foundational stories. She simply recognised it was a good vehicle towards God and lived the principles. She has read most of the critics. She now has found more confidence in Joseph. But it took over 20 years!
It’s a good vehicle. That’s a long way from what I used to think it was. Still adjusting. Thanks.
Have to admit I’ve never understood the fascination with the Tudors… they were monsters, and are estimated to have murdered at least ten percent of the English population (and God knows how many Irish) They’d kill you if you were Catholic (Elizabeth), Protestant (Mary) or either (Henry). Google the Vicar of Bray as well.
Yet these guys have films and books saying how wonderful they are.
Some good stuff’s come out of the Church of England, notably some great hymns, but its origins are more dubious than ours.
I always thought the older Brigham Young looked a bit like Henry VIII BTW. Both married more than once.
SamBee wrote:Have to admit I’ve never understood the fascination with the Tudors… they were monsters, and are estimated to have murdered at least ten percent of the English population (and God knows how many Irish)
They’d kill you if you were Catholic (Elizabeth), Protestant (Mary) or either (Henry). Google the Vicar of Bray as well.
Yet these guys have films and books saying how wonderful they are.
Some good stuff’s come out of the Church of England, notably some great hymns, but its origins are more dubious than ours.
I always thought the older Brigham Young looked a bit like Henry VIII BTW. Both married more than once.
I sometimes wonder why I worry about our origins when I remind myself of Anglicanism and it’s birth in the Tudor genocide.
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