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Rob4Hope wrote:
Stage 5 example: …..They are the ones where the locus of authority has been reframed internally. They weight the messages they hear, and between them and God as they believe, they choose for themselves how and what they believe.
This is perhaps the most masterful description of how to reach Stage 5. It describes exactly the path I took to finding relative peace in the church, and with my TBM family members. Thanks for capturing the mechanism by which some might be able to achieve the state I have described in my signature line for State 5 below this post. Complements of Brian Johnson who led me there in a one-liner buried in one of his posts years ago. But you said it even better.
Quote:I do feel hope there is a future for me, and even in the church. I have the possibility of rebaptism and having blessings restored. The problem hasn’t been the “how” to do that,…but “why”. You see, when you feel like you have been lied to about what you believe, the “why” question becomes slippery. My faith will never be the same as it was. I can’t go back to stage 3–I have tried, believe me…but it is not in my future.
Anyway,…look folks, I would be grateful if I were allowed to be part of this online community. I am respectful and will approach concerns with questions, and that in a way to respect others feelings. I hope I can make friends here, and perhaps learn and grow on some of these unfinished concerns I struggle with.
Welcome. In my view you’ve already paved an identity here with the clarity of your post. I believe there is a way to achieve what you desire, as well. Looking forward to issue-by-issue posts as you work through the why of it…
Rob4Hope wrote:Ha,…I remember your avatar the most,…that thinking gorilla.
I thought it was a gorilla getting a glamor shot by Deb.
[img]http://content7.flixster.com/question/57/37/90/5737901_std.jpg [/img] I haven’t read Fowler’s book, something tells me I’d have to read the same page over and over again and I still wouldn’t understand what I read. I also didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express so take this for what it’s worth.
I thought stage 4 was when a person began to discover their own internal voice of authority. I’m not sure where that leaves stage 5. Perhaps stage 5 is when you no longer view yourself as the ultimate authority (as it pertains to self) and you begin to “vacation” in the world garden of available loci of authority in order to refine your sense of self.
:eh: I tried to use English.In other words I think the internal locus of authority shows up much sooner than stage 5. I would think that it’s required in order to be critical enough for cracks to appear in the stage 3 mindset. To simplify my stage 5 explanation? Maybe the saying:
Quote:Relax, Nothing is under control.
And realizing that statement extends to ourselves, not just external forces.
Stage 6 is super simple to explain. You know you were stage 6 when people are still talking about your impact long after your martyrdom.
Rob4Hope wrote:This pathway,…these stages of faith, are one directional: you don’t go from stage 5 back to 4, or from 4 back to 3.
I agree with Roy on this one. I think the lines between stages are a little more blurry than we’d like to admit. Roy mentioned exiting one system of beliefs in exchange for another.
It might be semantics but it depends on what you mean by going back. In that sense I agree with you as well. Maybe a person in one stage can revisit another stage that they have already experienced but do they truly go back to that stage or are they returning encased in an insulated environment. E.g. I’m going to investigate Buddhism and see what it has to offer, but I’m going in with the intent to seek after things of good report and all things praiseworthy, not to look for a new leader.
Maybe it all comes down to confidence. Confidence in others. Confidence in self. Peace when walking in a lack of confidence. It’s all good.
Rob4Hope wrote:And,…this is important!!!! I have discovered that the opportunities for services have nothing to do with a calling.
:thumbup: I’m getting sidetracked. Welcome. I look forward to hearing more from you.
nibbler wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:Ha,…I remember your avatar the most,…that thinking gorilla.
I thought it was a gorilla getting a glamor shot by Deb.
[img]http://content7.flixster.com/question/57/37/90/5737901_std.jpg [/img]
Where did you find my real picture? You have outed me!nibbler wrote:I haven’t read Fowler’s book, something tells me I’d have to read the same page over and over again and I still wouldn’t understand what I read. I also didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express so take this for what it’s worth.
I know what you are saying. Just listen to MormonDiscussionPodcast.org on the stages of faith. He has a few there. He just did one athttp://leadinglds.com/making-room-in-lds-wards-for-those-that-doubt-fowlers-6-stages-of-faith/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://leadinglds.com/making-room-in-lds-wards-for-those-that-doubt-fowlers-6-stages-of-faith/ got me a new avatar. hehehehehehehe From an old post of mine:
Quote:Q: How many apologists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Since there is light, we know that the number of apologists involved was sufficient to complete the operation of lightbulb-screwing-in to connect the lightbulb to a power source which could then create the light. Or if there were no apologists involved in the lightbulb-screwing-in, somehow or other it got screwed in. Look, a butterfly!
IOW, we don’t know how, but we know there is light.
Welcome, R4H. I hope you find a home here. Rob4Hope wrote:I have had spiritual events happen in my life that are unmistakable. I have felt things reach across the veil and touch me in various ways, and I’ve seen the affects.
I’ll tell you right up front that I’m an Atheist. However, I have had spiritual events in my life too and it’s part of what makes everything so complicated. Not that I think “maybe God is real” or anything, but more like a gravitation toward the spiritual, even if there is no divine source (my perspective). I was once talking to an Atheist friend about why people believe in miracles (he was dismissive of faith). I mentioned that when I was a missionary in Latin America, that I had experiences that I couldn’t explain. He was incredulous and shot back, “C’mon, you don’t believe in that stuff!” My point hadn’t been about my beliefs, but about why people believe. He was so closed to it that he couldn’t allow that people could see things in ways that he couldn’t.
Regarding the Fowler’s Stages, I personally find limited value there. Others like them, memorize them, make their kids recite them on Family Night, do stenciling of them in their family rooms. I have zero problem with that, and if they work for you, great. I do think there is a tiny bit of danger in trying to label ourselves and others with broad-brush generalizations. Each person is different and has different circumstances and drivers. I’ve been an Atheist since the Bill Clinton Era, but I still take the sacrament with my right hand and don’t drink tea. From a 2012 thread:
On Own Now wrote:I’m not totally bought into the “stages of faith”. I find much that is accurate there, but it’s an awfully broad brush, and I find a bit of dissonance in the idea of labeling where each of us finds ourselves in the transition. It also leads to a false sense that progression from the stages is both akin to maturity or evolved state, as well as an inevitability. So, it’s definitely interesting, and I can see my vague image reflected in it, but it’s hardly a roadmap. There are many people who exhibit aspects of several of the stages at once… others who move in the reverse direction, others who skip stages in their entirety, others who never move from one stage to another once they reach adulthood.
On Own Now wrote:Welcome, R4H. I hope you find a home here.
Rob4Hope wrote:I have had spiritual events happen in my life that are unmistakable. I have felt things reach across the veil and touch me in various ways, and I’ve seen the affects.
I’ll tell you right up front that I’m an Atheist. However, I have had spiritual events in my life too and it’s part of what makes everything so complicated. Not that I think “maybe God is real” or anything, but more like a gravitation toward the spiritual, even if there is no divine source (my perspective). I was once talking to an Atheist friend about why people believe in miracles (he was dismissive of faith). I mentioned that when I was a missionary in Latin America, that I had experiences that I couldn’t explain. He was incredulous and shot back, “C’mon, you don’t believe in that stuff!” My point hadn’t been about my beliefs, but about why people believe. He was so closed to it that he couldn’t allow that people could see things in ways that he couldn’t.
Regarding the Fowler’s Stages, I personally find limited value there. Others like them, memorize them, make their kids recite them on Family Night, do stenciling of them in their family rooms. I have zero problem with that, and if they work for you, great. I do think there is a tiny bit of danger in trying to label ourselves and others with broad-brush generalizations. Each person is different and has different circumstances and drivers. I’ve been an Atheist since the Bill Clinton Era, but I still take the sacrament with my right hand and don’t drink tea. From a 2012 thread:
On Own Now wrote:I’m not totally bought into the “stages of faith”. I find much that is accurate there, but it’s an awfully broad brush, and I find a bit of dissonance in the idea of labeling where each of us finds ourselves in the transition. It also leads to a false sense that progression from the stages is both akin to maturity or evolved state, as well as an inevitability. So, it’s definitely interesting, and I can see my vague image reflected in it, but it’s hardly a roadmap. There are many people who exhibit aspects of several of the stages at once… others who move in the reverse direction, others who skip stages in their entirety, others who never move from one stage to another once they reach adulthood.
Hey OON,…thanks for the welcome. And, I have utter respect for your position and what you feel and say here. You will get no judgement from me.
This Fowlers thing?….it doesn’t fit for some, and others find it offensive as well. For me, it has helped. It makes sense to me, though I don’t pigeon hole myself into a “framework” that is set in stone. All I know is where I am now, what I struggle with now, and where I HOPE to move,…if that is possible at all.
Anyway, part of me understands the atheist position. I have struggled for a while wondering why God, if he exists, seems so aloof. I mean, historically (if we can trust history), JS was so familiar with deceased individuals that he described and compared them to those he associated with in this life. And, all of the sudden such things have vanished away it seems?
Anyway, I’m here. I enjoy learning from other points of view. I try to read really carefully and understand, and that with empathy as well. So, your thoughts, and others, will certainly not be wasted on me.
On Own Now wrote:Others like them, memorize them, make their kids recite them on Family Night, do stenciling of them in their family rooms.
That’s a broad brush statement to describe Stage 3 Fowlerites who have Stage 2 children!😆 Rob4Hope wrote:got me a new avatar. hehehehehehehe
Good, another primate on the board! I believe that makes three of us now. Ha ha! I think evolution may have reversed course…
😆 hawkgrrrl wrote:From an old post of mine:
Quote:Q: How many apologists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Since there is light, we know that the number of apologists involved was sufficient to complete the operation of lightbulb-screwing-in to connect the lightbulb to a power source which could then create the light. Or if there were no apologists involved in the lightbulb-screwing-in, somehow or other it got screwed in. Look, a butterfly!
IOW, we don’t know how, but we know there is light.
I didn’t know you were an apologist?
Holy Cow wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:got me a new avatar. hehehehehehehe
Good, another primate on the board! I believe that makes three of us now. Ha ha! I think evolution may have reversed course…
😆
I am making direct eye contact with each of you two and if you know what that means in the world of primates – I am exerting my dominance over the two of you. You had better avert your eyes before it gets nasty and the moderators have to get involved. he he heLookingHard wrote:Holy Cow wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:got me a new avatar. hehehehehehehe
Good, another primate on the board! I believe that makes three of us now. Ha ha! I think evolution may have reversed course…
😆
I am making direct eye contact with each of you two and if you know what that means in the world of primates – I am exerting my dominance over the two of you. You had better avert your eyes before it gets nasty and the moderators have to get involved. he he heHere we go!
[attachment=0]84b86192308901159dfc500d5dec3337.jpg[/attachment] Don’t bring my wife into this! What’s my sister doing in this pic! YIKES!
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