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I have two possibly competing thoughts. The first is one that has been rattling around my brain for awhile now; religious truths should be as such that mental gymnastics are not necessary to make them work? The second idea I heard on a podcast by Fiona and Terryl Givens on A Thoughtful Faith. They speak to the idea “that God has orchestrated, created mortality, the mortal condition in such a way that there is always a plenitude of evidence in which to draw in order to construct our belief or disbelief.” Basically we can make reasonable arguments both for and against faith. So now I am wondering if the mental gymnastics are purposefully placed by God so that we have to choose. If so, how do I know if I am choosing the right path? I don’t really want to exercise blind faith, but maybe that leap is necessary. I am at a loss as to how to move forward. I am certain that my answer will not single handedly answer you question. I am guessing Wayfarer or someone else will have a better one, but I am beginning to wonder if faith or belief is more of a choice than anyone teaches or acknowledges. One example I use in my faith/theology structure right now is look for patterns. Kind of like math. For instance Joseph Smith’s first vision – yes these visions are rare but it seems that other people have had similar experiences, this allows me to place some hope that he did see or experience what he claims. My first experience with vision/visitations came from my birth place. I was born in the town that Joan of Arc liberated France from the war with England in.The town still has a special day long celebration to commemorate it, re enact it, etc. Because of Joan’s experience, I allow other visitations to be possible.
For me that is the step by step plan I am using to try to continue my faith/theology, etc. Maybe something like this could help you?
This is a great topic. Thanks for asking it.
Ray said something on another thread that I’ve been pondering over.
Old-Timer wrote:In the end, I might or might not know if my faith was factually true – but my faith points me to where I want to go, and, therefore, is my own truth. If where I want to go changes, I will craft a new faith that will be my own truth as long as that new direction lasts. Faith won’t change; only the foundation and/or focus will.
If we apply this statement to the question at hand, we may understand that to build our faith and worldview from among all the possibilities is a creative act. If we then live in accordance with our understanding – we are excercising creative faith. Maybe the details of the faith are less important than the journey. How can you be on the wrong journey? it is yours and you are unique. Own it.I think this is a great question. The more I study our church history, structure and processes (both past and present) the less it “makes sense” and the more I have to do “mental gymnastics.”
On the other hand, the more I study the big picture theology (where do we come from, why are we here, where are we going) of Mormonism the more it makes sense. In fact I have to do mental gymnastics to get my head around another ‘meaning of life.’
I sometimes feel frustrated by the first issue. The ‘one true church’ should fit… Not need a retro-fit. There are many aspects of our history and culture that I simply can’t reconcile. And I’m probably not going to. Sometimes that points me towards choosing to reject all of it. But I keep stopping short.
I think that in the end the judgement of Mormonism is the fruit. Does living it make you a better or worse person? I am very comfortable with the notion that some people have better fruit by leaving the LDS church. I also see people in our and other faiths that produce (in my perception) rotten fruit. But also others who produce good fruit.
In the end I can only judge my own accurately. I currently can’t see an environment that would produce better fruit. So I take this root/branch to grow from.
I don’t believe in a “wrong path” – I think there is only one path… Life. Each philosophy or religion is a vehicle for travelling that one path towards more or less Good/God. And I think most of those vehicles have both reverse and advance modes. Mormonism is the vehicle in which I am able to spend most time in 5th gear and least likely to slip into reverse.
I’m aware that my faith crisis that started around a year or so ago means that I’ve spent a long time in neutral or 1st at best. Maybe a bit too much reverse. I’m spending so much time worrying I’m in the wrong vehicle that I’ve forgotten how to get into 5th. The Mormon vehicle has changed specifications compared to a year or two ago. It’s not the vehicle I once thought it was. I’m having to learn how to travel in it in a different way. There’s less free-wheeling and more false starts and crunching the clutch.
Having said that, the recent experience of baptising my son has reminded me that I do really like this vehicle and am still a long way off seeing a better option. I don’t rule it out, but try to stop my head by every passing Ferrari. They don’t have enough seats in the back for the family.
One of these days I’ll learn to say what I mean. Until then, I’ll enjoy speaking in metaphor.
Martha wrote:I have two possibly competing thoughts. The first is one that has been rattling around my brain for awhile now; religious truths should be as such that mental gymnastics are not necessary to make them work? The second idea I heard on a podcast by Fiona and Terryl Givens on A Thoughtful Faith.
They speak to the idea “that God has orchestrated, created mortality, the mortal condition in such a way that there is always a plenitude of evidence in which to draw in order to construct our belief or disbelief.” Basically we can make reasonable arguments both for and against faith. So now I am wondering if the mental gymnastics are purposefully placed by God so that we have to choose. If so, how do I know if I am choosing the right path?I don’t really want to exercise blind faith, but maybe that leap is necessary. I am at a loss as to how to move forward. Personally I think there’s an obvious difference between taking a leap of faith into the unknown in cases where it still makes some sense compared to the alternatives versus stubbornly believing in something in spite of solid logic and evidence strongly suggesting that it is false (young earth creationism, a global flood, etc.). It’s hard for me to imagine why God would expect me to ignore or deny overwhelming reasons to doubt a specific belief simply to test my faith in a sneaky and deliberately confusing way. That would basically make God an unfair and illogical trickster and that’s one reason why I think it is much more likely that it is simply people acting on their own that have attached so much importance to ideas that are extremely difficult or impossible to believe for honest truth seekers with the best possible intentions once they face the facts. How do we know it is so important to choose a very specific path to begin with? Maybe making some mistakes along the way and taking a different route than others is not nearly as serious as we have been led to believe.
Amen, DA. There is enough ambiguity in our world that requires faith natually without requiring that God plant dinosaur bones to test our faith, for example.
Roy wrote:Maybe the details of the faith are less important than the journey. How can you be on the wrong journey? it is yours and you are unique. Own it.
I’ve been thinking this as well. The specifics of my faith or even the depth of my faith is not as important as how I experience my own journey and treat others who are journeying with me. I know I need to own it, but I was a TBM just a few months ago and it is very difficult to shake the indoctrinated belief in ‘one true church’ and my thoughts continue to vacillate between old ways and new ways of thinking. It’s difficult to move past the idea that maybe I haven’t prayed enough or fasted enough or studied things out enough that will make the church as true as I used to think it was. Although it’s interesting that while I was a TBM, I felt like I was continually in a state of cognitive dissonance with aspects of the church that felt wrong to me (e.g. these rituals in the temple must be Divine in origin because the church is true and perfect in every way, but really?). I did reach out to a member of the bishopric who is of course TBM and has been very supportive and loving, but clearly the hopeful expectation is that I will return to the fold with the testimony I had before or even stronger because of this trial. He has asked me to do some reasonable exercises to help me such as writing down what I believe, writing down my previous spiritual experiences, a lot based on Pres. Holland’s talk of fanning the faith I already have. But the process is making me feel religiously bi-polar. I know I need to come to some middle ground and just own it, but as all of you know it’s a tough row to hoe.
mackay11 wrote:I think this is a great question.
The more I study our church history, structure and processes (both past and present) the less it “makes sense” and the more I have to do “mental gymnastics.”
On the other hand, the more I study the big picture theology (where do we come from, why are we here, where are we going) of Mormonism the more it makes sense. In fact I have to do mental gymnastics to get my head around another ‘meaning of life.’
I sometimes feel frustrated by the first issue. The ‘one true church’ should fit… Not need a retro-fit. There are many aspects of our history and culture that I simply can’t reconcile. And I’m probably not going to. Sometimes that points me towards choosing to reject all of it. But I keep stopping short.
I think that in the end the judgement of Mormonism is the fruit. Does living it make you a better or worse person? I am very comfortable with the notion that some people have better fruit by leaving the LDS church. I also see people in our and other faiths that produce (in my perception) rotten fruit. But also others who produce good fruit.
In the end I can only judge my own accurately. I currently can’t see an environment that would produce better fruit. So I take this root/branch to grow from.
I don’t believe in a “wrong path” – I think there is only one path… Life. Each philosophy or religion is a vehicle for travelling that one path towards more or less Good/God. And I think most of those vehicles have both reverse and advance modes. Mormonism is the vehicle in which I am able to spend most time in 5th gear and least likely to slip into reverse.
I think that in the end it is the best fit for me. It’s my culture, my people, it’s what I know. Like you, though I’m having a hard time getting out of neutral. I like the analogy
🙂 DevilsAdvocate wrote:Personally I think there’s an obvious difference between taking a leap of faith into the unknown in cases where it still makes some sense compared to the alternatives versus stubbornly believing in something in spite of solid logic and evidence strongly suggesting that it is false (young earth creationism, a global flood, etc.). It’s hard for me to imagine why God would expect me to ignore or deny overwhelming reasons to doubt a specific belief simply to test my faith in a sneaky and deliberately confusing way. That would basically make God an unfair and illogical trickster.
I agree. There are clearly issues in which the evidence suggest they are false. I think in some of those cases, it is humans that messed things up to begin with, not God. Maybe the flood story was a parable, but over time it was accepted as an actual story. Faith is the hope in things that are unseen (so therefore need to be unseen), but are true. The true part is the dilemma. Just going back and forth between FAIR and sites like Mormonthink certainly do point to the difficulty of figuring out what is true. Human points of view and creative history make it difficult if not impossible. In the end, faith is needed combined with reasonable evidence. And maybe it’s more important to just follow one’s own truth in the absence of clear direction or evidence.
Old-Timer wrote:There is enough ambiguity in our world that requires faith natually without requiring that God plant dinosaur bones to test our faith, for example.
Agreed. It’s funny, I don’t think I ever thought about the dinosaur bones, but one day my dinosaur loving son asked his dad about why there were dinosaur fossils that were millions of years old. He gave the response about God using already formed matter, such as from other planets, to form this one. At the time, it seemed like a reasonable answer. It answered the question and didn’t interfere with my beliefs. Cognitive dissonance avoided.
Quote:Maybe the details of the faith are less important than the journey. How can you be on the wrong journey? it is yours and you are unique.
Great point Roy but I some times wonder if the journey is aways necessary. It seem like some journeys are just running on a treadmill, they don’t really get you anywhere and all you end up doing is getting tired and sore.
That’s not a journey, church0333. That’s stationary pain. :thumbdown: I have bad knees. I don’t do treadmills – physically or spiritually. I thank God for that every day.
church0333 wrote:Quote:Maybe the details of the faith are less important than the journey. How can you be on the wrong journey? it is yours and you are unique.
Great point Roy but I sometimes wonder if the journey is always necessary. It seem like some journeys are just running on a treadmill, they don’t really get you anywhere and all you end up doing is getting tired and sore.
Martha wrote:I know I need to come to some middle ground and just own it, but as all of you know it’s a tough row to hoe.
Church and Martha, I agree that the journey can be difficult. Some live a semi-charmed life while others experience a life that dashes their expectations. The character Fontine from Les Miserables sings “But there are dreams that cannot be and there are storms we cannot weather.” I believe that making meaning (the process through which we assign the over arching narrative to our story) is important for all. But I believe that it is even more important to those that are in the midst of what seems to them to be great suffering. (Please see my signature lines for some relevant quotes on meaning, suffering, and faith and how I feel that they interconnect.) I have seen many variations of this meaning making (even within Mormonism) and I am amazed at how the different narratives, with their different features, serve the diverse needs of the various proponents.I see it as an act of faith to construct meaning from our lives. Just as stated in the OP, there is sufficient evidence to support meaning; but it must be wanted – it must be sought after. The meaning is not obvious, it will not spring forward unsummoned. Nor will it be uncontested. There will be tension because there is just as compelling evidence to suggest that life is meaning
less. This is where I draw strength in the metaphors of “fanning the flames of faith” and “holding fast” to what I do believe. I believe not because I am convinced I can’t be wrong but because I see life as so precious that it would be (for me) an unbearable shame if it were to mean nothing. This is where I stand because I believe it to be a cause worth standing for.
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