- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Thanks all. I think I need to find a way to teach her that equality is paramount but men and women do have different roles in the gospel as equal partners. That sticks a little in my mouth.
Mackay – I can not fix or fully answer your daughter’s question but I know my life and my daughter’s lives have been filled with heroic stories of women. This was very empowering. My progenitors (too long to tell) were abandoned orphans who stood strong as women.
Joan of Arc, she was my first hero. She liberated the city I was born in. She was a spiritual giant, who lived and died for her convictions.
Then others from history. Add to that women from the bible. There are the biggies, Esther, Ruth, Naomi, Mary, etc. But also Abigail, and others. These women each had a mission – it had no deadline or papers. It was not applied for, it was sent by God.
The personal I’ve tried to teach my girls. “Know your God, and He will direct you.” I don’t know if it will help her, but you are welcome to use it.
Mackay11…………You may want to let her know as well that its great that she has questions about church,that your glad she asked you and its okay if she is frustrated from time to time with the church especially the culture. That those feelings are natural and a sign of growing. If she feels that she is being disrespectful to the church/gospel/god for questioning practices or beliefs then as she gets older she could simply turn off her mind and follow the cookie cutter path that the young women/church force down her throat in every possible way.
That is bad for two reasons.
1. She will never gain a testimony of the gospel for herself which can leave her vulnerable to peer pressure from both inside church and from the outside world.
2. She will be more inclined to stop progressing as an individual and simply follow the church sanctioned status quo for women even if that is not what is best for her individually.
She is lucky that you won’t make her feel bad for having questions!
Mom3 – good points. I tend to agree with Ray that this actually will encourage far more girls to serve, not to marry at age 18 (!). Among new missionaries, half are women. That speaks volumes. Here are some changes that I think need to come to support that:
1 – make the MP’s wife a calling also. For MPs with small children, this makes things a bit tough perhaps.
2 – female APs and leaders for the sisters among the sisters. If we want to go the nun / priest route, that makes sense. Some progressive MPs I heard about had female APs over the sisters.
I have wondered one other thing – if this will also result in more women being the breadwinner in their marriages. They will gain the skills missionaries do, and they will have done a year of college before mission, plus take 6 months less to complete their missions. I also wonder if it will be hard for the boys to get a start on their college if they delay for 2 years.
While I agree that the church isn’t really encouraging (officially) boys to go at 18 vs. 19, just allowing it has already resulted in some pressure at local levels for 18 year old boys to go immediately at 18, once they finish high school. My son is in this age group, and he plans to go to college first, but he’s been “counseled” by several bishops or other local leaders to go at 18 – not his own, but other wards. A few bishops and leaders are just making a blanket encouragement to go at 18 without even knowing the kid.
Mackay11….you gave your daughter great advice! Sorry, my phone seems to have chopped off part of the first page of posts so I didn’t see the last part of your message until now. Lets see if this posts. Another question? Why can’t men over 25 years old serve missions and women can at any age? Why can’t men serve more than one mission as singles, like a 35 year old widower but women can? Things aren’t always equal but there must be a reason. church0333 wrote:Another question? Why can’t men over 25 years old serve missions and women can at any age? Why can’t men serve more than one mission as singles, like a 35 year old widower but women can? Things aren’t always equal but there must be a reason.
Thanks everyone for the feedback.
This is a nice one to point out to her, as an advantage for women.
The (cynical?) answer to this question is probably:
– An unmarried man over 30ish is a mormon pariah, best to not give more reason to delay marriage
– A male widow can remarry at the temple, best to not give a reason not to
– A female widow can’t be sealed again, so if she’s a widow with kids left home, there’s less obstacle to a mission
Fwiw, my oldest son waited until he was 22 to serve a mission. Waiting was the best decision he could have made.
Even if I had joined then, would it have been a good idea for me to go? I had been recently orphaned at eighteen. This question is so so sad. That is what worries me most about staying in the church-the day that my daughters see what I view as sexism. I think what you told her is the best possible answer you could give her. Because we don’t really have an answer. I would be hesitant though, to tell her we are equal but different in the church. One day she may realize that is just not true any definition of the world equality that she has been taught at school.
On Own Now wrote:It is part of priesthood responsibility. Sisters are “not under the same mandate.” Simply put, priesthood holders are supposed to serve, and their obligation is to serve 2 years, beginning as early as age 18. Sisters may serve if they so desire, and this optional service will be for 18 months starting as early age 19.
I feel like we say this for everything in the church; women don’t serve in leadership outside of auxiliaries because it is a priesthood responsibility; women are the presided over in the home because presiding is a priesthood responsibility. It seems like the priesthood is a really great excuse for women to not have any authority, leadership or (which is probably the worst of all) accountability.
Maybe I will start a new thread on that topic…
HSAB wrote:This question is so so sad. That is what worries me most about staying in the church-the day that my daughters see what I view as sexism. I think what you told her is the best possible answer you could give her. Because we don’t really have an answer.
I would be hesitant though, to tell her we are equal but different in the church. One day she may realize that is just not true any definition of the world equality that she has been taught at school.
On Own Now wrote:It is part of priesthood responsibility. Sisters are “not under the same mandate.” Simply put, priesthood holders are supposed to serve, and their obligation is to serve 2 years, beginning as early as age 18. Sisters may serve if they so desire, and this optional service will be for 18 months starting as early age 19.
I feel like we say this for everything in the church; women don’t serve in leadership outside of auxiliaries because it is a priesthood responsibility; women are the presided over in the home because presiding is a priesthood responsibility. It seems like the priesthood is a really great excuse for women to not have any authority, leadership or (which is probably the worst of all) accountability.
Maybe I will start a new thread on that topic…
This was my first reaction when she raised it. Pain at the perception she was inferior.
We had a follow-up talk a couple of days ago. We talked about how female bodies are different to men, that sometimes men and women naturally sometimes have different interests.
I told her that mum and I were equal, but not the same. That we were as important as each other in the family, but played different roles. That sometimes she went to each of us for different things (we talked about wrestling and cuddling).
She pointed out that the book she was reading about bodies changing said the same thing and was ok with that.
We then went on to chat about the church and that there are different roles there too, including men having the priesthood. She also seemed ok with that.
I explained that while a mission is strongly encouraged for men, as part of their priesthood calling, that while the church are happy for women to go too, they don’t make it an expectation. In the past they gave 3 years for the women to consider several options (university, travelling, marriage) first and a mission if they wanted.
Now the sisters ages have come down so they can go earlier if they want to. It might be shorter, I said, because maybe (like in sport) it’s quite physically tiring to go. Plus, older sisters can go on missions with younger sisters and more than 18 months would be especially challenging for them. I also mentioned that men in some countries have been able to go at 18 due to military service, so they decided to make it 18 in every country.
I finally pointed out that women can go several times and at any age, whereas men get only one chance.
I hope that I gave her enough information to help her feel answered without saying “because God says so.”
We’ll see.
As a woman, I’ve never felt like i wasn’t expected to be accountable–not sure where that idea came from. I remarked several times to my husband that it bothered me that everyone was sooo excited about the new mission age—boys can now go at 18, if graduated from high school—-but no one seemed to be remembering that almost in the same sentence it was said that not every young man would be ready for a mission at 18. My son turns 18 in october of his senior year, so I hope he will work for the summer to help pay for his mission–and then go in the fall when he is very close to 19.
we have 7 daughters and 4 sons—our 3 oldest sons and our oldest daughter are all inactive—my 4th child, a daughter, has been our only missionary. Her boyfriend was slightly younger than her, and because of immunizations, he had to leave later on his mission than normal. While he was gone, my daughter decided to go on a mission. She used to talk about going when she was younger. Her boyfriend returned, went to school, then she returned and went to the same school—it took longer than I expected before they married–then they put off having children for about 2 years. Because I knew about her female cycles, I was concerned she would have trouble getting pregnant—and it did take awhile.
She is now expecting her second little boy in 4 weeks
she will be 28 4 months after she has her baby. I don’t know how many children they want—but I feel like her age could possible limit them.I think it is great your daughter is asking questions—I grew up feeling like it was wrong to question anything (my sister said she felt the same way, so it had to be our leaders) Now that I am an adult, I have discovered that things I believed or stories I was told are either not doctrine and some of them are Mormon urban legends. Now I ask so many questions and look up so many things in the hand book that sometimes I am afraid people will think i am just an angry rebel–(some days I AM angry)
I wish the church would emphasis a little more that they acknowledge that some young men cannot serve missions for one reason or another, but there are still other things they can do to serve that would be equivalent to a mission. My oldest son had such a good gospel knowledge and was such an honest child and people would tell me good things he did when I wasn’t around to see. I think that the thought of a mission probably terrified him, and I can’t help but wonder sometimes if that is part of the reason he fell away from the church–if he was active, he would have been expected to go on a mission.
I grew up during the time when the emphasis for women was changing from get married and be a homemaker, and the Church’s push for everyone to get an education. My mother had always worked, and I hated it, so I was determined to stay home—I loved feeling domestic and being a homemaker—and had more children than I ever would have guessed.
It seems like so many women went to school, got careers, and then didn’t want to stay home with their children—so then it seemed like the Church started saying,” get and education, but stay home with your children.” It seemed like many people misunderstood what they were being taught and the Church had to reemphasize the importance of a mothers role.
I do have to admit, though, that as my children are leaving home, I feel like I don’t have alot to show for myself. My health is not as good as it used to be, so I can’t do all the homemaking things i used to love. I feel like everyone else is smart and educated and can do things to help with the horrible economy–and I can’t do anything to help with retirement—my husband will have to work with bad knees until he is 70!!
I think 19 for girls to go on a mission is great! I don’t want my girls to marry too young–but I don’t want them to marry too old either—I only have 3 girls not married yet, and one is in 3rd grade and one is in 7th—guess I’m jumping the gun on a couple of them!!!!
mackay–your daughter rocks…and great answers. Hawkgrrrl…i want to give you a big hig for those answers for my wife and five daughters who refused to believe that cultural paradigm. next time i am in singapore…
Quote:I feel like everyone else is smart and educated and can do things to help with the horrible economy–
Don’t put yourself down like that, the best education often doesn’t come of colleges. Remember there are many other ways.
Remember also that some of these “educated” people got us into this economic mess to begin with.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Mom3 – good points.
I tend to agree with Ray that this actually will encourage far more girls to serve, not to marry at age 18 (!). Among new missionaries, half are women. That speaks volumes. Here are some changes that I think need to come to support that:
1 – make the MP’s wife a calling also. For MPs with small children, this makes things a bit tough perhaps.
2 – female APs and leaders for the sisters among the sisters. If we want to go the nun / priest route, that makes sense. Some progressive MPs I heard about had female APs over the sisters.
I have wondered one other thing – if this will also result in more women being the breadwinner in their marriages. They will gain the skills missionaries do, and they will have done a year of college before mission, plus take 6 months less to complete their missions. I also wonder if it will be hard for the boys to get a start on their college if they delay for 2 years.
While I agree that the church isn’t really encouraging (officially) boys to go at 18 vs. 19, just allowing it has already resulted in some pressure at local levels for 18 year old boys to go immediately at 18, once they finish high school. My son is in this age group, and he plans to go to college first, but he’s been “counseled” by several bishops or other local leaders to go at 18 – not his own, but other wards. A few bishops and leaders are just making a blanket encouragement to go at 18 without even knowing the kid.
My first MP (loved him) had his wife in charge of a lot of things. She had several small children and she still coordinated all of the health issues in the mission. We had quite the network of LDS doctors and dentists that she would arrange appointments with. I also discussed some mental health issues with her. I talked to her as much as my MP and both were very helpful in different ways. She spoke at every zone conference twice. Once was always something about us needing to clean the apartments better or use more hand sanitizer…but the other was always quite spiritual. Certainly more than the APs’ talks were in my opinion. We still talk occasionally (more than with my MP) and she’ll always be a second mom to me.
We also had a companionship of sisters that were leaders over the sisters. They had a catchy title but I somehow have forgotten it hehe. They were like Zone leaders except they covered the whole mission since the sisters tended to be spread out. The sisters had their own meetings every so often, arranged their own exchanges, and the sisters in the leadership position were even consulted when it came time for transfers. You could say they were on the same level as the APs because they reported to the MP’s wife and not the APs and she would consult her husband if necessary.
As for sisters in general, I always enjoyed that more mature viewpoint of the sister missionaries. I was a month shy of 24 when I got to the field. I found 19 year old boys quite annoying. The sisters, often 23 or 24 instead of 21, were much more mature in their testimonies and approach to the work. They cared so much more about the people and not their “duty” or numbers or whatever.
Which brings me to the 18 year thing. It’s being pushed really hard in my family’s ward. I have younger brothers that have had to tell the bishop to back off (in basically those words). My family isn’t one to give in to church peer pressure.
You’d think they’d be more cautious since that ward has had ~30% of its missionaries come home early the last few years.
If I’d gone at 18 or 19 (or 22) I’d have come home after 6 months or less and never wanted anything to do with church again. Working through some cogdis stuff and learning how to process uncorrelated history before my mission saved me. My experiences with wandering away from the iron rod for a while gave me a new appreciation of many of the truths we were teaching without having to use cultural justifications and such.
All in all, I’m sure there are some for whom serving at 18 will be beneficial. But it would have been a disaster for me.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.