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My upbringing was standard faithful LDS. I went on a mission. I married in the temple. I started working and raising a family (five children). Yet I can remember key points in my life when I questioned certain aspects of the Church. I can recall on my mission when an overzealous zone leader brought in his district leaders (I was one of them) and challenged us to engage in some missionary process I privately thought was ridiculous (not inappropriate just ridiculous). I can’t remember what it was but he turned to each district leader and personally asked for a commitment to it. There were about five of us and I was the last. Each one said “yes” and I felt more and more tension as he came closer to me (shades of Solomon Asch!). When he did ask for the commitment I weakly said, “I’d like to think about it.” (The issue never came up again). I also remember a member of the quorum of the seventy coming to our mission to teach us about missionary work. We spent an entire day learning high pressure sales techniques from this (well-intended) gentleman. The missionaries around me seemed to find it inspiring, I found it depressing. The fact is that I hate to go along with the crowd. I’m always digging in my heels. More recently during a stake conference, they held a Saturday night adult meeting (I hate those!) and the speaker had everyone stand up and do some silly activity during his talk (can’t remember what it was). I thought “this is stupid” and remained seated. (My wife was appalled.)
Ultimately, my big issues have never been doctrinal (though there are a few things that make me raise my eyebrows) but cultural. Some of the cultural beliefs that permeate our church drive me crazy! Another example: we are a two career family…not a two job family but two careers! I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had with my wife as she struggles with the LDS cultural demand that a woman stay at home. Sometimes the guilt she feels is overwhelming. It doesn’t seem to matter that all our children are either out of house (one at college and the other other on her way) or that she’s very good at what she does (she’s a school teacher working on her master’s degree), the prevailing attitude in our part of the world (we live in the “Mormon belt”) is that she should be at home.
That doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate and love the Church. Most of it is wonderful. I enjoy the people in my ward (for the most part) and I’ve been very lucky throughout my life to have great bishops who (despite personal weaknesses) have always been intent on doing the right thing and genuinely care about their ward members. And like many of you, I’ve had a few personal experiences that I would call sacred. But my rebellious spirit keeps flaring up from time to time.
I entitled this post “a quiet rebel” but I’m really a “cowardly” rebel. I rarely express my true feelings about these issues (a little bit to my wife but she gets nervous if I venture too far from “orthodoxy”). This board seems like a great place to be to explore my own issues and read about others. I appreciate how positive the posters are. Everyone seems to be at a different point but all are accepted and validated. I don’t know how much I’ll post but I will definitely keep reading.
Great introduction. Welcome to the forum! I think most of us can relate to having an anti-authoritarian streak (Jesus wasn’t exactly big on kowtowing to authority either, so we’re in good company), and finding aspects of the culture irritating, especially when others seem to conflate the gospel and worthiness with meeting cultural norms. Living outside of Utah helps. My husband & I are also a dual career family, have been for 20 years, so you are not the only ones. I hope you find what you are looking for here and look forward to your insights.
Yeah … I seriously have that character trait too, probably to a fault at times. 😳 I am notorious for just doing whatever it is I think I should do. I don’t make a big show or fight out of it. I just go and do it, not really thinking much about not being able to do it. That’s worked really good for me sometimes, and then other times it gets me in trouble.The amusing thing to me is how “normal” my life appears on the outside for so long, and how DW and I drifted into a traditional cultural family style in spite of who we are. The internal tension it creates is good for me though. I don’t know if I would really trade it away, even if I get frustrated at times.
BTW, I could totally see myself saying the same thing to the Zone Leader: “Yeah, i’ll think about that…” Probably for the same reasons. If I say yes, it means I REALLY will go and knock myself out trying to attempt the impossible if needed. And then like you described, I don’t like feeling pressured into a serious commitment. I am not a loud person or one who likes to argue. But I have no problem at all just calmly saying “no, I don’t think so. That’s not happening.” And I mean it.
We are a two-career family as well. My wife stayed at home during the critical points in parts of our children’s development, but she works now. And did through most of my first child’s toddler years. Although I love my wife, she is no home-maker. She gets no energy from homemaking unless it’s doing crafts. Meals do not get made, housecleaning rarely occurs unless I do it — and that makes me miserable at times. The children do not get taught or trained unless I do it. Nor do gospel habits like prayer or scripture or FHE occur unless I initiate them.
I’m happier when my wife is out to work, because we have money to pay people to do these things occasionally. The house and other problems remain, but at least I feel she is contributing to the success of our household in other ways. In fact, the house is cleaner because no one has been at home to mess it up all day.
And my daughter, who was essentially trained by Montessori School teachers is a gem. She values order, kindness, and is very intelligent. We see the impact of those golden Montessori school years where she learned to put things away, to clean up after herself, to do simple tasks, to serve others in a group context all the time. These are things which I don’t think my wife would have instilled in my daughter. Further, my son, who didn’t have the same benefits as my daughter, is not that way. He has adopted the “can’t see the floor” method of keeping things orderly like my wife.
So, when people say “A woman’s place is in the home” — I balk. I think a woman can do wonderful things in the home when she has the energy to do them and is so inclined. I think there are strong merits to it. But when she is merely at home and not contributing much — even neglecting bare essentials, it can be hard on the marriage AND the kids. I know firsthand it can be better for the overall success of the family to have her fulfilled in a job where she gets paid for doing something she loves.
Working outside the home has been very good for my wife’s self-esteem, and she is quite good at it. I am a happier husband when she is working too, and I think my children benefit from the exposure to professionals in child training several hours a day.
Regarding rebelliousness….I hear you. I too am very quiet about my contrarion ideas. I have trouble with situations where there are absolute rules applied without exception to everyone. I resist policies and expectations which have a low reward to effort ratio. And I cringe at following policies blindly when there are other creative methods that could be adopted to achieve better results.
So, to some extent, our personalities work against our happiness in the Church.
I’m sure you will find many of your own coping mechanisms as you read the posts of others and ask questions, as I have. I’m at the point where I wonder if you ever get to a point you’re always completely happy in the Church, but one has hopes….my experience is not everyone’s.
Regarding Brian having no problem telling others what he will and will not do…..I laugh at that as some of that has rubbed off on myself. The post I liked was when he told a poster named girlygirl she needs to be a “sassy girlygirl” and be assertive when people push their cultural expectations on her. I think he meant it tongue in cheek because we all subscribe to gentlemanly/gentewomanly conversation here.
On this note, back when he had public favor, Mel Gibson was interviewed by Barabara Walters, and in typical Barabara style, she tried to box him into a corner. He was staunch catholic at the time and had 6 kids, married to an average Catholic woman. Barbara said something like “Gee Mel, your movies have a lot of sex in them. How can your movies have so much sex in them when you’re a Catholic?”. Mel’s answer made me laugh. He said “It doesn’t bother me”. She repeated the question, trying to box him into a value-behavior conflict so many of us face when we join a Church with a publicly known set of values. He simply stated “It doesn’t bother me”.
What I saw was that his personal conscience was ruling. Whether we agree or not with the sex in his movies, the fact is, he was on his own clock. His membership in a particular organization didn’t mean he necessarily had to abandon the way he saw the world.
Perhaps he’s a bad example with some of his public rants and decisions lately, and also, the fact that something like sexual behavior in movies didn’t bother him. But when someone says “How can you put your wife out to work when the Prophet says a woman’s place is in the home????”….I can reply “It doesn’t bother me”.
I’m totally at peace with that one. I never rant about it either because I’m just totally at peace with it. It’s the best thing for my family to have my wife bringing home money if she detests contributing to the household in the way envisioned by ETB. I can’t change her, so let’s go with what she does naturally, nurture it, strengthen it, and enjoy the benefits to our lifestyle, kids and family.
Welcome. I can totally relate to your issues with cultural Mormonism (or should I say “church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint-ism? I can never tell …). I have little patience for those things, often traditions, that I consider to be ridiculous (and there are a lot of them), or inspired more by someone with a degree in marketing than by God, but rarely will I say anything about it, unless confronted. Some close to me see it as passive-aggressiveness, and they’re probably right. Unlike you, I have some serious issues with doctrinal Mormonism as well. Like you, I’m trying to focus on the good. I hope you will continue to find constructive discussion here. Thanks for the welcome. Quote:Although I love my wife, she is no home-maker. She gets no energy from homemaking unless it’s doing crafts. Meals do not get made, housecleaning rarely occurs unless I do it — and that makes me miserable at times.
SilentDawning, this is my life, too! My wife and I struggle to make things work and some days are definitely better than others. Thanks for the response!
Welcome Gerald. I enjoyed reading your introduction. I can really identify with you and where you’re at because it’s exactly where I am at as well.
Gerald wrote:This board seems like a great place to be to explore my own issues and read about others. I appreciate how positive the posters are. Everyone seems to be at a different point but all are accepted and validated. I don’t know how much I’ll post but I will definitely keep reading.
True statement.
Doug – I didn’t have my glasses on when I read your note referring to the “church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint-ism”, and I thought it said “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Sadists.” Glad that wasn’t what you meant! Welcome to the forum. That was a great intro. I look forward to learning more as you share in more posts. hawkgrrrl wrote:Doug – I didn’t have my glasses on when I read your note referring to the “church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint-ism”, and I thought it said “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Sadists.” Glad that wasn’t what you meant!
😆 Well, that would throw a wrench in the whole branding thing, wouldn’t it? No, I have my limits.Are you certain it wasn’t Freudian?
🙂 I was alluding to the conference talk by Elder Ballard, of course.
Welcome to the forum, Gerald! Gerald wrote:My upbringing was standard faithful LDS. I went on a mission. I married in the temple. I started working and raising a family (five children). Yet I can remember key points in my life when I questioned certain aspects of the Church. I can recall on my mission when an overzealous zone leader brought in his district leaders (I was one of them) and challenged us to engage in some missionary process I privately thought was ridiculous (not inappropriate just ridiculous). I can’t remember what it was but he turned to each district leader and personally asked for a commitment to it. There were about five of us and I was the last. Each one said “yes” and I felt more and more tension as he came closer to me (shades of Solomon Asch!). When he did ask for the commitment I weakly said, “I’d like to think about it.” (The issue never came up again). I also remember a member of the quorum of the seventy coming to our mission to teach us about missionary work. We spent an entire day learning high pressure sales techniques from this (well-intended) gentleman. The missionaries around me seemed to find it inspiring, I found it depressing.
The fact is that I hate to go along with the crowd. I’m always digging in my heels. More recently during a stake conference, they held a Saturday night adult meeting (I hate those!) and the speaker had everyone stand up and do some silly activity during his talk (can’t remember what it was). I thought “this is stupid” and remained seated. (My wife was appalled.)
Ultimately, my big issues have never been doctrinal (though there are a few things that make me raise my eyebrows) but cultural. Some of the cultural beliefs that permeate our church drive me crazy! Another example: we are a two career family…not a two job family but two careers! I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had with my wife as she struggles with the LDS cultural demand that a woman stay at home. Sometimes the guilt she feels is overwhelming. It doesn’t seem to matter that all our children are either out of house (one at college and the other other on her way) or that she’s very good at what she does (she’s a school teacher working on her master’s degree), the prevailing attitude in our part of the world (we live in the “Mormon belt”) is that she should be at home.
That doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate and love the Church. Most of it is wonderful. I enjoy the people in my ward (for the most part) and I’ve been very lucky throughout my life to have great bishops who (despite personal weaknesses) have always been intent on doing the right thing and genuinely care about their ward members. And like many of you, I’ve had a few personal experiences that I would call sacred. But my rebellious spirit keeps flaring up from time to time.
I entitled this post “a quiet rebel” but I’m really a “cowardly” rebel. I rarely express my true feelings about these issues (a little bit to my wife but she gets nervous if I venture too far from “orthodoxy”). This board seems like a great place to be to explore my own issues and read about others. I appreciate how positive the posters are. Everyone seems to be at a different point but all are accepted and validated. I don’t know how much I’ll post but I will definitely keep reading.
Gerald, you have no idea how closely I relate to pretty much everything you’ve said. Like you, my big issues are not doctrinal, but cultural, but they drive me up a wall! You know, I don’t stop by here all that often, but when I do, and read a post like yours, it makes me feel so good to know I’m not alone. (By the way, I’m a woman who retired a year ago after enjoying an immensely satisfying career, so I can relate to your wife as well.)I appreciate the warm welcome I’ve received since joining this board. I’ve never joined any discussion boards before (though I’ve lurked on a few). It’s kind of a big step for me personally.
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