- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
A_Wanderer wrote:
Thank you all for the support and thoughts…
Hm. A lot of you are arguing that masturbation is hardly a sin but if you do a search in the Ensign archives about it, you can see that President Kimball had taken a strong stance against it. If the President of the Church has spoken out against it, well, there’s not much room for denial, is there?
Also, perhaps you all can help me with another question… I’ve heard it said over and over that one can experience CONSTANT true happiness if one keeps to the commandments of God. Can anyone give clarification and/or personal experiences with this?
Not to belabor the point but President Kimball was wrong and assuming that anything he said, being the prophet, is true and God’s word is wrong. The implication that obedience brings constant true happiness is wrong and a piss poor reason for keeping the commandments. You pay your money and you take your chances but there are no guarantees. Thinking you’re entitled is a excellent way to find out what real disappointment is.
I should be clear here. Guys, please know that I’m not here to start up fights. Not in the slightest. Now, to continue, of course I know that the Prophet or, for that matter, any of the Church leaders aren’t perfect. I also know that not everything they say is Word of God. Absolutely. However, I think you guys might be carrying that point too far. Now let’s say that the Prophet says one day that he really likes chocolate Ice cream. Does that mean that chocolate ice cream is best ice cream because the prophet likes it or even recommends it? Of course not. HOWEVER, when the prophet is at the pulpit and he is advising the church in what they should do, I do believe that the Holy Ghost tells him what to speak.
In D&C 1, it says, ‘Whether by my own voice or by the voice of my prophet, it is the same.’ I’m sure we’ve all heard that scripture before. The Lord has also said that he will never allow the prophet to lead the people in the wrong direction. So, if President Kimball says during an important speech that masturbation is a sin, and he’s wrong, wouldn’t that count as leading the people in the wrong direction?
Going back to my second question now, OK, I can see that one can never feel constant happiness, but EVERYWHERE it says that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the only source of true happiness. So, can someone explain that further instead?
This is going to be a very direct comment. Please take it in the spirit in which it is being written. We are WAY off the point of the original post, and it is fairly obvious that, collectively, we see a lot of things fundamentally differently. I will put this out there, and we can see where it goes from here:
I have no problem believing that the principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are the only ones that bring true happiness, since those principles are broad and expansive. Seriously, I read the Sermon on the Mount and what Jesus is recorded to have taught, and I can get on board easily and happily with the idea that living those principles (humility, meekness, mercy, compassion, love, charity, forgiveness, etc) brings true happiness. However, if that is applied to mean only Christians can have true happiness (or more narrowly, only Mormons can have true happiness), that claim is demonstrably false. Missions will teach that clearly, for any missionary who has eyes to see. Bluntly put, believing only specific believers can be truly happy is disproven by millions of people throughout history. To further that point,
Elder Holland in his talk about depression explicitly stated that faith alone cannot bring happiness for some people– that some people need medication, coping mechanisms, professional counseling, etc. in order to overcome their natural depressive tendencies and find peace and happiness – even people who are “fully righteous” and living every commandment to the absolute best of their abilities. Finally, the verse in D&C 1 makes sense ONLY if seen in one of two ways – and the first (prophetic infallibility in everything they say) is patently inaccurate and indefensible, based on clear cases in our scriptural canon and modern experiences when they have been wrong. The second is that when prophets collectively speak over time and deliver the exact same message without variation, then their words constitute the voice of God. That view is more consistent with the actual wording of the verse, since it says the “voice” (singular) of the “servants” (plural), NOT the voices (individual) of the servants (each and every one) – and
there are very few things that fit that view, even if you look only at what modern Mormon apostles have said and taught. Claiming prophetic infallibility means that prophets never say or do anything that is not God-directed, and limiting their infallibility to things they say from a pulpit is the exact same thing with only a limited scope. That also is demonstrably false, since there are lots of things that have been said in General Conference over the years that simply were wrong.
We don’t need to hash that out here, since nobody here is going to accept it. We are a support group for members who are struggling partially because of that belief in their local communities, so it simply won’t fly here. We can try to help with advice about things like masturbation and gaming addiction and testimony crises, but we can’t help defend some aspects of orthodoxy – and the admins and moderators won’t allow any thread to turn into an argument about any topic or a space where someone ends up getting attacked in some way. That’s not why we are here.
We welcome anyone to participate here, even extremely orthodox members who can be respectful and understand where we are in our journeys, but if you firmly believe something that won’t be supported here, you probably ought to drop it or find another forum that will be a better match. I hope we can be that type of place for you, but arguing prophetic infallibility in any iteration isn’t going to work.
A_wanderer. I think you’re possibly not going to get much orthodox support on this thread. There are lots of LDS boards and groups. You are of course welcome in this one, but please appreciate that we are not a very conventional one. Even when the prophet thinks he’s speaking as a prophet there are times when he sees through a glass darkly and speaks only in part. Don’t be bound by everything they say.
A_Wanderer wrote:I should be clear here. Guys, please know that I’m not here to start up fights. Not in the slightest.
Now, to continue, of course I know that the Prophet or, for that matter, any of the Church leaders aren’t perfect. I also know that not everything they say is Word of God. Absolutely. However, I think you guys might be carrying that point too far. Now let’s say that the Prophet says one day that he really likes chocolate Ice cream. Does that mean that chocolate ice cream is best ice cream because the prophet likes it or even recommends it? Of course not. HOWEVER, when the prophet is at the pulpit and he is advising the church in what they should do, I do believe that the Holy Ghost tells him what to speak.
Sorry but your example reminded me of pierced ears.
Quote:In D&C 1, it says, ‘Whether by my own voice or by the voice of my prophet, it is the same.’ I’m sure we’ve all heard that scripture before. The Lord has also said that he will never allow the prophet to lead the people in the wrong direction. So, if President Kimball says during an important speech that masturbation is a sin, and he’s wrong, wouldn’t that count as leading the people in the wrong direction?
If people take what he says without thinking about it, yes.
Quote:Going back to my second question now, OK, I can see that one can never feel constant happiness, but EVERYWHERE it says that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the only source of true happiness. So, can someone explain that further instead?
The gospel is the good news that Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again and that He’s the author of eternal happiness to all mankind. That’s the gospel, not some made up rules that seemed like a good idea at the time.
You know what? I’m going to apologize again. I thought this was a normal LDS forum like any other but apparently not. I should have got the message when the admin first posted about it but I thought he was talking about something else. I’m sorry for wasting your guys’ time. I should have realized you guys were unorthodox. I just googled lds forum and you guys were the second result. (lds.net being the first) A_Wanderer wrote:You know what? I’m going to apologize again. I thought this was a normal LDS forum like any other but apparently not…
Welcome to the island of the misfit toys. (That one is for you Tom Hawes.)
Btw…I don’t think you’ve wasted anyone’s time.
I do suggest to read the mission statement of the board. If you don’t want this kind of board, or dont need this kind of board, good luck on your journey.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
A_Wanderer wrote:You know what? I’m going to apologize again. I thought this was a normal LDS forum like any other but apparently not. I should have got the message when the admin first posted about it but I thought he was talking about something else. I’m sorry for wasting your guys’ time. I should have realized you guys were unorthodox. I just googled lds forum and you guys were the second result. (lds.net being the first)
No worries. I think we’re a fairly accepting bunch and don’t insist on people agreeing with us. We certainly don’t always agree. Elder Uchtdorf has given some great talks about diversity within the church. It’s a big tent with room for lots of people.
Maybe register with LDS.net and ask for a forum suggestion where you can discuss masturbation with more orthodox members.
Like cwald, I wish you luck on your next stage in your journey.
(I’m delighted to hear we’re second for ‘LDS forum’)
mackay11 wrote:A_Wanderer wrote:You know what? I’m going to apologize again. I thought this was a normal LDS forum like any other but apparently not. I should have got the message when the admin first posted about it but I thought he was talking about something else. I’m sorry for wasting your guys’ time. I should have realized you guys were unorthodox. I just googled lds forum and you guys were the second result. (lds.net being the first)
No worries. I think we’re a fairly accepting bunch and don’t insist on people agreeing with us. We certainly don’t always agree. Elder Uchtdorf has given some great talks about diversity within the church. It’s a big tent with room for lots of people.
Maybe register with LDS.net and ask for a forum suggestion where you can discuss masturbation with more orthodox members.
Like cwald, I wish you luck on your next stage in your journey.
(I’m delighted to hear we’re second for ‘LDS forum’)
LDS.net’s rule on all sexual discussion seems pretty final. It was actually the server’s host who decided the new rule. The admin of the site had no say even though she didn’t like it either. I sent a polite email to the host but I, of course, didn’t ever receive a reply.So are you saying normal Mormon won’t discuss normal stuff because I consider masterbation pretty normal. Just saying. A_Wanderer wrote:mackay11 wrote:A_Wanderer wrote:You know what? I’m going to apologize again. I thought this was a normal LDS forum like any other but apparently not. I should have got the message when the admin first posted about it but I thought he was talking about something else. I’m sorry for wasting your guys’ time. I should have realized you guys were unorthodox. I just googled lds forum and you guys were the second result. (lds.net being the first)
No worries. I think we’re a fairly accepting bunch and don’t insist on people agreeing with us. We certainly don’t always agree. Elder Uchtdorf has given some great talks about diversity within the church. It’s a big tent with room for lots of people.
Maybe register with LDS.net and ask for a forum suggestion where you can discuss masturbation with more orthodox members.
Like cwald, I wish you luck on your next stage in your journey.
(I’m delighted to hear we’re second for ‘LDS forum’)
LDS.net’s rule on all sexual discussion seems pretty final. It was actually the server’s host who decided the new rule. The admin of the site had no say even though she didn’t like it either. I sent a polite email to the host but I, of course, didn’t ever receive a reply.I’ll ask around and see if there is another forum that is still ‘orthodox’ but willing to discuss this.
church0333 wrote:So are you saying normal Mormon won’t discuss normal stuff because I consider masterbation pretty normal. Just saying.
Define “normal Mormon”. Do you mean the site or Mormon members?mackay11 wrote:I’ll ask around and see if there is another forum that is still ‘orthodox’ but willing to discuss this.
Oh, don’t worry about it. I think I already found one. Besides, I’m really good at finding stuff on the ‘netz.A_Wanderer wrote:You know what? I’m going to apologize again. I thought this was a normal LDS forum like any other but apparently not. I should have got the message when the admin first posted about it but I thought he was talking about something else. I’m sorry for wasting your guys’ time. I should have realized you guys were unorthodox. I just googled lds forum and you guys were the second result. (lds.net being the first)
I’ve been thinking about this since you posted it and I guess I consider myself orthodox. The issues like yours and some of the other things that seem to spring up around the edges are just extras. For the serious important stuff I consider myself both orthodox and normal, IMHO.
I have a lot of unorthodox beliefs about specific things, but, overall, most people who know me consider me to be orthodox. Everyone who knows me considers me to be faithful and orthoprax. Most members tend to use “orthodox” to mean “those with whom I agree” and “heterodox” to mean “those with whom I disagree”. Since I’m able to express most of my unique views using orthodox vocabulary and by using orthodox principles, most members who hear most things I say think, “Yeah, I can buy that as a possibility.” That means most of them view me as orthodox – or, perhaps more accurately, mainstream – by which they mean “traveling the same path and not a threat”.
Hi A-Wanderer. Welcome to the site. This site may not be for you. Regardless, the furry and masturbation problem may or may not be as you think of yourself. You can be your own worst enemy at times in self thought. This is particularly true if you have help from the outside by people of authority who are helping push you in this direction with or without conscious thought. I advise as Ray has said to seek out a professional trained physiologist to help with this and shed light on it from a trained, knowledgeable, outside source. But even more important then that, to get help with your thinking process which shows a very strong sign of splitting (black and white thinking). It is very destructive to yourself and others if you are having this thought process. Please, it is very important that you seek professional physiologist help in this and the other issues before getting seriously involved in a relationship, let alone mission or marriage. It can prove very destructive to be close to or live with someone who splits thoughts.
However you take this, please don’t assume it is an attack on you. Everyone has their own set of problems for which they need assistance. None of us here can declare beyond what we know. That is why I ask you to seek out help from a qualified trained psychologist. Authorities of the church simply are not trained or qualified for this type of diagnosis or help. Neither are we. But you show strong signs.
I wish you the best of luck, blessings and success in overcoming your problems and finding happiness and peace and emulating that to those around you. Take care.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.