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Old-Timer wrote:
I agree with much of what you say, da and fd, about stuff that has “cumbered the vineyard” – but I also think you might have missed lots and lots of statements from the top over the last 5-10 years that try to address much of what you’ve said directly. Seriously, there have been some massive changes over that time period – so much so that many people complain that the Church is trying to jettison its uniqueness and be just another mainstream Christian church…a decent percent of people are complaining that radical change is happening too quickly because the top cares too much what other people think and a different decent percent are complaining that change isn’t happening and the top just doesn’t care…
Finally, there is a HUGE difference between thinking someone doesn’t understand and that someone doesn’t care – and that is my main point.
I don’t have a problem with them telling the story of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon or believing in any other uniquely Mormon ideas but what I think is completely wrong is the pervasive attitude where many TBMs basically expect every other member to just believe all this too and if not then they think it is completely unacceptable. Church leaders can talk about being nice to people with different beliefs and values all they want but I really doubt that this idea will really sink in for the majority of active members simply by hearing it a few times. The end result is that not much has really changed in recent memory from my perspective.
What would be a real change would be something like actually cutting out some of the detailed temple interview questions where they grill members about things like the WoW, sustaining the Church Presidency and apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators, and having a testimony of the restoration of the gospel. Why not just ask members if they feel like they are worthy to go to the temple and let anyone that still feels guilty about something confess it at that point if they really want to? If that is too much to ask for, another suggested change that I don’t think very many members would complain about would simply be to switch to a 2-hour block of meetings and maybe eliminate some of the current callings and let more members share the workload for whatever still needs to be done.
One reason I don’t really expect many major changes right away is because the LDS Church is not really dying out in an obvious way at this point. So as far as they’re concerned all is well in Zion and Zion prospers. That’s what I meant when I said they don’t care, not that they are callous or uncaring but simply that they are complacent due to a false sense of security about most active members’ overall satisfaction and commitment to the Church. I think they would need to really see a drop in membership and activity levels to the point that they have to start closing down wards in Utah before they will seriously consider any kind of overhaul in the current policies.
I guess we just disagree, since I see lots of changes due specifically to issues from the regular membership. It’s cool. That’s why I love this forum. We can disagree and still be civil and friends.
been traveling up in Seattle and missed this whole thread. What a shame. It’s a good one. FD – I agree with what you are saying. I could quote SEVERAL of your posts, but I think this sums up my belief
Quote:Secondly I think it would be extremely helpful for the leadership in SLC to lighten up on people. I know the diehards will say “Well … Let’s just let everyone do what they want…etc, etc.” The problem comes down to culture becoming policy and it being acceptable. Some will say that it is simply people exercising free agency, I dissagree.
Frankly I think it should come down to a handful of broad questions in regards to worthiness.
Do you have a testimony?
Do you do your best to follow the commandments?
Do you have anything you feel we need to address?
Is there anything that the Church can help you with?
Is there anything you feel you can help the ward/branch/stake/church with?
Why there needs to be this whole long process and layer after layer of dogma, discussion, etc. is beyond my senses.
I also think the women and the priesthood is a worthy issue to debate as well – but another time.
I’ve struggled with this exact issue – and have started many threads dealing with it such as: Strict Temple recommend questions, WofW, Caste System within the church.
I think the church in general “takes the membership for granted.” I’m not sure I can say the GA’s do. I’m taken for granted in my branch and stake, but I’m not sure that I would say that my local leaders “don’t care.” They used to take me for granted anyway, not anymore. They just assumed that since I’m active and a RM, they can ask me for money and to take callings and that I will do it without question. No – I’m a mormon on my own terms now. They need me so they put up with me. When our branch grows enough to becomes a ward — things could get ugly.
😥 Most of my issues with the church are stemming from the culture, and I’m not sure it is fair to blame the current GA for that. JS is the guy who started the whole “the only true church on the face of the earth…” not Pres. Monson. Grant is the guy who had an the issue with alcohol and made it a TR question, not Monson. They inherited it and are kind of stuck with it. Change is happening, but the membership won’t listen. It’s like the Priesthood lesson/talk that Packer gave. Packer HAS CHANGED! But when I read some of those quotes in EQ and made the comment that the word “worthy” was not used once in the entire talk, my stake Pres said, “Well he’s an Apostle so he can do that but I’m not going to.” What? you’ve got to be kidding me.
Perhaps the best example of change and the GA’s understanding and perhaps even AGREEING with some of Fen’s and the DA’s statements is the policy dealing with tithing. The church won’t define tithing for you in the TR interview. Locals are instructed to ask the question – do you pay an honest tithe, and they leave it up to you to decide. I think that is the right direction. Some would argue that the TR questions are vague. I think the questions will get more and more so in time?
Quote:More important than the limitations some of these TBM traditions put on the total potential membership is the question of whether or not they are really necessary to be a good Christian. Not only are they not entirely necessary in my opinion I think they are actually a hindrance in many cases to being a good Christian for misguided members that attach exaggerated importance to these things. The Church should do what is right and let the consequences follow but the problem is that they already think they are right so more often than not they will err on the side of doing nothing instead.
Quote:Why not just ask members if they feel like they are worthy to go to the temple and let anyone that still feels guilty about something confess it at that point if they really want to? If that is too much to ask for, another suggested change that I don’t think very many members would complain about would simply be to switch to a 2-hour block of meetings and maybe eliminate some of the current callings and let more members share the workload for whatever still needs to be done.
Amen brother! Amen!
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