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Hello all and thanks for letting me join the forum! This will just be a quick introduction post. I have harbored doubts and skepticisms about the church for years. I’ve always been fascinated with church history and will say that I have probably been better informed than the average member regarding the trickier aspects of our history. So there has not really ever been any shocking revelations during my faith crisis. I have been aware of most of the issues one by one and put many of them on the shelf over th years or found temporary satisfactory answers from the apologists. My faith crisis began last fall when I was called to be EQP. I was harboring some doubts at the time, but felt the new calling could be an opportunity to shore up some of those doubts. I also got repeated advice from leaders about just following the Spirit and letting my keys lead. Following the Spirit has never been easy for my overly cerebral mind, so I took this advice as a challenge to improve my spiritual ability too.
As I pulled down items from the shelf or re-explored things I’d previously found some answers for, I found I had a new tapestry laid out before me that painted the church in an entirely new light. Previously I’d always looked at these things from the standpoint of the church is true and forming answers that fit that conclusion, even if they weren’t the most logically straigtforward approach. But I had an awakening sort of moment when I honestly asked myself, “What if the church isn’t true? Would I want to know?” Once I allowed that question to be asked honestly, I found the picture painted by everything I either already knew or was learning to be vastly different. I also asked myself seriously during this time if I really believed that God exists. I know I like the idea and want to believe, but I am firmly on the side of doubt at this point.
The cous-de-gras, so to speak, was when I started to doubt emotional/spiritual experiences as coming from God. As I mentioned earlier, feeling the spirit has never really resonated with me in the first place and it makes much more sense to me that we feel strong emotional/spiritual ties when we encounter things that we hope or want to believe in that resonate with what we personally believe. We all all subject to the culture and influence of our upbringing and life experiences. And when we come across ideas or thoughts, scriptures, or experiences that resonate with those experiences and desires, we may feel strong emotional or spiritual feelings that will ring true. To me this explains how different people of different backgrounds can have different spiritual experiences that seem to contradict.
So that’s where I am now. My wife is a true believer and knows about my doubts and has lovingly listened and supported me through this. I also spoke with my Bishop who was also very supportive. Then my stake president wanted to visit (after my bishop spoke to him) and also was loving and supportive. They both said I’ve not done anything wrong by having doubts and gave me generic Mormon advice about studying and praying and seeking the spirit. I probably downplayed my doubts a little, but I was still grateful for their support and non-judging attitudes. The main reason I went to my bishop is I felt obligated to let him know if he felt I shouldn’t continue in my calling. To my surprise, I haven’t been released. I told my stake president that I don’t believe the Book of Mormon as a historical book and that I’m not sure about the existence of God, among other concerns. And he hasn’t released me. That was 2 months ago. Since then, my doubts have grown and I’m feeling more like I want to ask to be released. I just don’t think I can serve effectively in this calling from where I’m at right now.
So that’s kind of a snapshot of where I’m at right now. It has been lonely and scary going through this. I’m grateful for a supportive wife but she only wants to listen so much…hearing about my general nature of my doubts and concerns but doesn’t really want to get into specifics and I respect that. My goal is not to drag anyone else through what I’m going through.
I will post more in the futur but wanted to introduce myself here first.
Thanks for listening and looking forward to getting to know the community.
Welcome Tom, You are bringing me back a few years to the first time I asked myself honestly, “What if it ISN’T true” and BAM! An emotional free fall like I have never ever experienced. It took about 1 second to fall past all my Mormon beliefs, grabbed at a limb of “is Christianity still true” and that didn’t slow me down at all and ended up asking if there was even a God. I toyed around with the thought of being an Athiest, but to me that feels too certain that I know something. And I don’t. I don’t even know how I would know. I have settled, partially to help preserve my marriage, on being a follower of (most) of Christ’s teachings as I think for the most part that lines up with my internal moral compass of primarily loving and helping others. I may be taking Pascal’s wager in a way, but I am OK here. I feel much more calm (but it has taken years).
I was serving as HPGL after being released from a bishopric. That was causing lots of emotional consternation within me. I had to teach a lot and I (respectfully) pushed the boundaries (I NEVER taught out of the manual – I just couldn’t). I tried to be honest. We talked about how to talk about porn with our kids (not in the way the church does with lots of shame). About how HP meeting is zzzzz and how we can improve it. I even talked about the essays using Elder Ballard’s CES talk about “you need to know these essays” (not ONE of the HP’s had even heard of them). I finally had to ask to be released and volunteered to go into Primary. That has helped ease the emotional tension quite a bit. Once again – I don’t follow the manual strictly (I talked about the Friend article that touched on the seer stone in the hat – one girl replied, “That is stupid!”) I try to just make the class fun and touch on the lesson topic and pull in all kinds of different somewhat related topics – such as JS’s family “farmed” maple syrup which took up > 50% of the lesson time.
I am blabing a bunch about me and I hope it helps. I have found this site and the welcoming folks here a key part of my healing. Glad you have come here and I hope you also find healing.
Keep explaining yourself. Writing is good to “get it out”. I would also recommend trying to find someone that you can talk to (phone of preferably face to face) that you can be 100% honest with and they will not be judgmental.
DoubtingTom wrote:The cous-de-gras, so to speak, was when I started to doubt emotional/spiritual experiences as coming from God. As I mentioned earlier, feeling the spirit has never really resonated with me in the first place and it makes much more sense to me that we feel strong emotional/spiritual ties when we encounter things that we hope or want to believe in that resonate with what we personally believe. We all all subject to the culture and influence of our upbringing and life experiences. And when we come across ideas or thoughts, scriptures, or experiences that resonate with those experiences and desires, we may feel strong emotional or spiritual feelings that will ring true. To me this explains how different people of different backgrounds can have different spiritual experiences that seem to contradict.
Welcome to the forum.
The extract above resonated with me. I have similar struggles and have reached a similar conclusion.
You are fortunate to have such a supportive wife and understanding leaders. I think more and more of our local leaders are seeing and interacting with those in crisis or transition and it serves them well to try to understand rather than condemn. Sadly, leadership roulette is still going strong and likewise I think our bishops are seeing things the general membership are not, thus many members are not as understanding.
We look forward to your participation as well.
Thanks for your replies. I agree that I’m fortunate to have support. I was hesitant to even go to my bishop because I’ve heard advice on forums against that, but for me it was more of an integrity thing. I felt he should know honestly where I’m at and if he still felt I should stay in my calling, that was his choice. But I felt dishonest serving each week without him knowing my doubts. That said, I still feel some sense of disingenuousness (is that even a word?) about standing up before the quorum. I never testify of things I don’t believe but I also don’t share my doubts and the implication is that I do believe. So there is a bit of discomfort still in this calling but I like to serve. I still may ask to be released in the future, but for now it’s enough for me for the leaders to know where I stand and let them decide.
DoubtingTom wrote:
Thanks for your replies. I agree that I’m fortunate to have support. I was hesitant to even go to my bishop because I’ve heard advice on forums against that, but for me it was more of an integrity thing. I felt he should know honestly where I’m at and if he still felt I should stay in my calling, that was his choice. But I felt dishonest serving each week without him knowing my doubts.That said, I still feel some sense of disingenuousness (is that even a word?) about standing up before the quorum. I never testify of things I don’t believe but I also don’t share my doubts and the implication is that I do believe. So there is a bit of discomfort still in this calling but I like to serve. I still may ask to be released in the future, but for now it’s enough for me for the leaders to know where I stand and let them decide.
There is some discussion of this idea here:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8037 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8037 IMO it is not disingenuous to state what I believe without stating what I don’t believe. Everybody does it to one extent or another.
DT, welcome to the forum! Lots in your intro that I’m sure everyone identifies with. I love that your SP and bishop were supportive and understanding the point of keeping you in your calling. I’d recommend you read Reuben’s post about his outreach program to those in faith crisis. You really could be a person to do a lot of good and maybe that’s what your leaders are thinking. Honestly, the more people are feeling emboldened (or whatever the motive is) to be open about their doubts, the more local leaders are seeing that it’s not unusual like leprosy, and that they need to work with who they have. For every person who says “Hey, I have doubts!” there are probably 10 who quietly doubt. Welcome! I am glad you found us. I can relate to your story on many levels. I repeat the same things here many times, but what we each have to offer is our own experience. One thing that helped me is realizing I could let go of my previous ideas about, or construct of God, while still pondering the possibility of something greater in the universe than only what our physical senses can detect. I like to say “God is what is”, to me God exists in the truth of it all, what science can detect as well as what is on the other side of the black hole. I don’t think a sense of wonder and a curiosity about “more” ever hurt anyone – or denied them communion with physical scientific reality. Quote:I told my stake president that I don’t believe the Book of Mormon as a historical book and that I’m not sure about the existence of God, among other concerns.
Are you comfortable keeping your BOM opinion to yourself? That’s kind of what it boils down to, in my opinion. Doubts about the very existence of God might be more acceptable to voice because they aren’t quite as threatening to the group. I know that sounds nuts, but I think that kind of doubt and despair is seen as sort of understandable and possibly fleeting.I think that makes sense that doubting God is less threatening than doubting the BoM. After all, we are inundated from the beginning that it is the keystone and if it falls, everything falls with it. We are sold this dichotomy that either it’s all true, or all a big fraud, but I reject that dichotomy. So for me having doubts about anything shouldn’t necessarily be threatening but to those who hold onto that polarizing viewpoint, then doubting the BoM undermines the entire foundation. I can keep it to myself, sure, but he already knows so that genie is out of the bottle. When I meet with him again, I’m sure he’ll ask where I’m at and I won’t lie. My doubts are stronger and my certainties are weaker. The question is whether or not I’ll ask to be released (the focus of my other post)
Being authentic is radically different than being totally open. Being totally open almost always is a negative thing. Seriously, it causes much more heartache in nearly all settings than it helps. We bite our tongues in every conceivable situation. Doing so in church is no different, since, at the core, it’s a matter of inter-personal relationships.
Hi Tom, Thank you so much for sharing. This is a wonderful place. I relate to much of what you said, from the TBM wife, to having to “come out” for the first time when extended a calling in the EQ Presidency. It’s a lonely place to be in; not wanting to take away from the good, but not willing to lie.
There is still much good religion can offer. After arriving at my own conclusions, the next question I needed to ask myself is, “If it isn’t true, does it matter?”. There are many LDS who are inifinitely happier staying LDS, even if it isn’t true, than to stop believing in it. StayLDS to me, means taking out what good I can, and ignoring the rest. To use the General Authority analogy, “The buffet approach”.
Something that really helped me, was listening to the lecture from Alain De Botton, “Religion for Atheists” (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br8m2S98HU4&t=1548s ). It is based on the book he wrote by the same name. When he was doing his book tour, he decided to skip over “Utah”, thinking it much too religious, and not having much market. To his suprise, Utah sold substancially more copies than any other state. I guess a lot more members struggle, than are openly willing to admit.Old Timer wrote:
Being authentic is radically different than being totally open.Being totally open almost always is a negative thing. Seriously, it causes much more heartache in nearly all settings than it helps. We bite our tongues in every conceivable situation. Doing so in church is no different, since, at the core, it’s a matter of inter-personal relationships.
I tend to think of it this way. When my wife says “Does this dress make me look fat?” how do I answer? Hint: I tell her the truth, but there’s no way I’m going to ever tell her she looks fat even if I think she does.
Welcome! Your story sounds a lot like mine. I’ve been skeptical about a lot of what I’ve been taught growing up along the Wasatch Front, but never really allowed myself to really question things until recently (the last 5 years or so). I’m still actively attending, but I’m not very believing (mostly agnostic now) and I don’t enjoy most things about being a member. I stay now primarily for my wife, although it’s really eating me up inside. I have a lot of anger toward the corporate church and the damage it has caused to my own mental health and my family. I do still see a lot of good in the Church among the thorns, and I try to focus on that. I’m not sure what I know or believe anymore. Truth has always been a focus of mine, but it just isn’t that important anymore. I’ve found it to be much more productive to focus on beauty and goodness instead.
Welcome again and I hope you will find this community to be helpful!
Welcome! You’re story sounds similar to mine. Cerebral, didn’t really have much of a connection to God and Jesus, and I distinctly remember the moment I asked myself “What if it’s not true”?
I don’t post here much any longer but I found this space to be a lifeline in the early part of my faith transition. Lots of great folks on the board.
Welcome DT. Thanks for sharing part of your story and your thoughts. It is good to meet you. I echo dande…
dande48 wrote:StayLDS to me, means taking out what good I can, and ignoring the rest. To use the General Authority analogy, “The buffet approach”.
Do you do a lot of studying on your own, or do you use websites and podcasts and into many online forums? Just curious.I don’t have anything to back this up but my own feelings…but it feels to me like your position is more and more common in church nowadays. It seems to be what leadership is considering and praying about. From their perspective…it is looked at as “a need to strengthen the faith of the members” or perhaps “rescue the lost”…for various reasons.
But as more and more people understand, experience, and even feel like you do, and still find a place in church…well…it does seem like the church can accept it and stop coming up with alternative stories on how to describe it…and just realize some people believe what they believe…and it is OK.
I look forward to learning more from your posts. Thanks for sharing.
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