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I love corinthians 13 but i never really took a hard look at the following verses (8-10,12-13, emphasis mine): 8. charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies,
they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9. for we
know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10. but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away…
12. for now we see through a aglass, bdarkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13. and now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
what i think that these verses are saying is summed up in verse 13. because prophecies,tounges, and knowledge are all only “in part” for right now, the only three sure things we can rely on are faith, hope, and charity until “that which is perfect is come”
another question i have concerning this is faith vs. knowledge. faith is the first principle of the gospel. without faith it is impossible to please god. faith is etc. etc. etc. but joseph smith also emphasized that knowledge is what saves us. when the brother of jared saw god his faith was no longer faith but had now turned into knowledge. so what is more important faith or knowledge? or are they both essential? imo i think that faith makes up for whereever our knowledge lacks. any other thoughts about these specific questions or anything else you observe about these verses or topic in general?
I liked looking at this passage again. Thanks. First of all, the first principle of the gospel is faith in Jesus Christ, not just faith. My perspective on knowledge is that the only things we know are what we experience. I absolutely don’t agree with the statement that knowledge saves us. Only Christ saves us. God does not operate in a way that all his children can have brother of Jared type experiences. I don’t know what it takes for salvation or exaltation or whatever. But certainly knowledge isn’t required. Could it be both …or could both words be two legs of the same stool? We gain the knowledge of how to exercise faith – for example? I just thought of this, perhaps faith in Jesus is what saves us or produces salvation and knowledge literally is salvation. that would go along with john 17:3 “this is life eternal that they might know thee the only true god and jesus christ whom thou hast sent” jbelli21 wrote:I just thought of this, perhaps faith in Jesus is what saves us or produces salvation and knowledge literally is salvation. that would go along with john 17:3 “this is life eternal that they might know thee the only true god and jesus christ whom thou hast sent”
Yes. I agree, and there are very deep and profound messages in all those scriptures quoted in this thread, especially John 17:3.
I wrote the following as part of a post on Mormon Matters a while ago: “I return to the scripture I mentioned above – I Cor. 13:9-13. In full text, it reads:
Quote:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
I believe I know in part, and I believe our prophets prophecy in part. I believe that will change someday, but I have no idea when that will be. There was a time, prior to my first reading of the Book of Mormon, when I thought as a child – that everything was black and white and I could know it all; I put away that belief at a very early age. I believe I see through my own glass, darkly and, therefore, only in part; I believe someday I will know fully.
Verse 8 is the bridge between the characteristics of charity and the outlook charity provides. It says:
Quote:Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Given this perspective, I live now with faith and hope that I will understand and know more fully on an on-going basis as my future unfolds. The greatest thing I can do in the here and now, however, is to be charitable – to obtain the characteristics in 1 Cor. 13:4-7 and allow them to grow within me and change me into the type of person who can accept wherever I and others are in our own individual spiritual maturation processes.
I am certain of many things, but those things are principles – not details.
Radical changes in policy and even “doctrine” don’t shake me, since I have never based my testimony on those things.I believe firmly and deeply in the PRINCIPLES of ongoing-revelation and charity exercised in how I must view others – that what I believe now differs from what I believed as a youth and young adult – that what I believe now differs from what I will believe in the future – that what I believe now differs from what others believe now. I believe that this charity God gave me as a youth will not fail me, even as prophecies and tongues and knowledge fail all around me.In my youth, this was an unconsciously proactive embrace of the core concept embedded in the dark night; in my adulthood, it is a light shining in darkness.”
jbelli, that was thought provoking. Thanks! I’d also add that Faith and Knowledge are not mutually exclusive things. They overlap and depend on each other. You must have some knowledge in order to exercise faith, and when that faith is exercised, knowledge grows which allows faith to further grow. I can’t have faith in a God if I don’t know what God means, even if I don’t fully understand God, just trying to understand the concept means I have some knowledge of something that I’m trying to understand and get more knowledge on.
jbelli21 wrote:joseph smith also emphasized that knowledge is what saves us.
Can you provide a reference? Was this from Lectures on Faith? I’d like to see what the context is he was teaching this to better understand it.
I agree with NW, there are no actions without faith but it is Faith in Jesus Christ that saves us, not just faith.
Great post, jbelli…good scripture to think about and understand.
So if prophecies are defined as:
Quote:knowledge of the future
– is it reasonable to say true prophecies (as given by God) will in part be fulfilled, and in part will always fail because the “story” (using Tolle’s verbiage) is only reflecting one aspect or perspective about reality, but true reality cannot be explained in words, and therefore prophecies will all fail at some level? That is why free agency must choose which part to have faith in, but it does not mean that is the only “story” to describe reality.
Would you all agree with that?
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