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I’ll be the first to admit that just hearing the word porn triggers a series of images to go through my head. and when I hear talks about how bad it is my mind argues back reminding me of all the “good” things about it. The more it’s discussed the more I’m tempted. Fortunately since I’m happily married I have other outlets for the tension and it’s not as bad as it used to be for me. but it’s still not pleasant to be picturing porn in the chapel. It’s messed up when porn is talked about more than Jesus in sacrament meetings. It’s not every Sunday…. But it seems like every Sunday there’s *something* talked about more than Jesus. And I don’t think that’s ever right.
Yes, it can be addictive for some. I used to know a book seller. When someone died, he’d often be sold their libraries. Well, one library he saw was not what he was expecting. You know the rest. Basically this deceased man had spent vast amounts of money on magazines (pre-web), some unopened. It would have taken a long time to look at the hundreds of thousands of images. If he did. Did the bookseller take them? Can’t remember. He would have had storage problems though.
Now that’s a serious addiction.
A few other thoughts… * One of the few areas feminists and religious fundamentalists agree on. What does that tell us?
* If two or more models are involved there is *always* a homosexual element. Either because the models are same gender and/or because the viewer is watching at least one person of their own gender in a sexual act. This is rarely remarked upon.
* Human traffic is part of it, but not the full story. I think we hold a Victorian view on this. A lot of women actually enjoy this work too. Times have changed. The idea they might enjoy exhibitionism, public sex or the fact that they earn more than an equally exploitative mainstream job threatens some people. It’s not all slavery, although for some it is.
A lot of women pole dance, earn big money and return home like from any job. And they don’t feel ashamed. If they worry about their appearance, so do clothes models and singers.
This is not a justification for viewing it, just saying it’s not all melodrama and kidnapping…
* Because it becomes samey, a lot of people graduate to more extreme forms. Despite fashionable views, I think S&M is an illness. Getting off on inflicting/receiving pain (even simulated) suggests psychosis to me.
Some graduate onto varieties which are wrong on every level. And illegal. Continental Europe has an unsavory market for zoophilia (legal in some places). And we often hear about images of children being found on someone’s computer.
* Some link sexual violence with porn. Difficult to say, but there is a link in some cases.
Lots of talks that focus on porn at the local level hasn’t been an issue in the wards and branches I’ve attended – although I want Sacrament Meeting to be a worship service, and this topic isn’t appropriate for that purpose, in my opinion. If it’s going to be discussed, I think it should be in the third hour. In general, I’m more concerned that it is mentioned every General Conference – and sometimes in more than one session.
AM, as I’ve said, I want to hear about it far less from the pulpit than happens currently, but I don’t see it as an either/or situation. I have no problem with people “bashing on the porn industry”, since I absolutely loathe that industry, but I agree totally that we need to stop using it as a constant punching bag and as a stick with which to beat people.
I like Pres. Uchtdorf’s statement in that regard:
Quote:Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you do.
It’s not the judgment of the industry that bothers me; it’s the judgment and treatment of people (and the effects of our attitudes on them) that bothers me.
It shouldn’t be mentioned from the pulpit. Sunday school perhaps or with bishop privately. The biggest element missing from porn and the sex industry is love. There’s none of the pleasure of getting to know someone, or going through life together. Or indeed the break up. It’s sterile in more ways than one.
Wow, I love that quote by Uchtdorf. Thanks for sharing it Ray! I know I personally need to stop judging people period! Sorry everyone if I got overly judgmental in this thread! Wouldn’t it be funny if they talk about porn at church tomorrow?
AM, I actually meant that quote to be directed at people who judge those who view porn, not you or your comment – but it’s an awesome quote regardless of the “target”. :thumbup: I’m sorry but I do judge people that look at child porn or rape porn or snuff porn. I know many never go to that level but you can’t deny that it is a steady progression for some. As far as the run of the mill porn I don’t fault men or judge them for their biology. I do wish though that men would realize that most stars/prostitute aren’t participating in the sex industry because of choosing to turn down “other options” especially those working in the dark/poorly made stuff.
According to
http://www.thewhiterosemovement.com “66-90% of women in all areas of the sex industry have been sexually abused as children.” So I’m sorry SamBee but for most of the women in the sex industry it was not a thought out “career path” to take money from you poor gullible men, it was influenced by past trauma including the women in “soft porn”.Again I ask if people in the church were allowed to masturbate without porn would that alleviate the need/desire to use it to such addictive levels? Would peoples natural urges be taken care of to the point that we wouldn’t need to have a 100 talks on it and abstinence?
Again I know several Christian churches that do not look at masturbation as a sin if it does not involve outside stimulus. I know you have to think of something but would it help cut down on the use and thereby the guilt that is instilled by the church for having our natural desires?
Dax wrote:Again I ask if people in the church were allowed to masturbate without porn would that alleviate the need/desire to use it to such addictive levels? Would peoples natural urges be taken care of to the point that we wouldn’t need to have a 100 talks on it and abstinence?
At risk of hijacking this thread – Dax, I do not view masturbation as a sin. I think it’s a healthy outlet, especially “unaided” as phrased here. Putting masturbation in the category of unchastity, which is next to murder, heaps unimaginable guilt on people, especially youth who have no way of knowing better. I for one have told my kids not to worry about masturbation. I believe there is some scientific evidence that shows that masturbaters have better mental health, although I have to admit this line sounds like a joke.
:can-I-smile?
Dax wrote:Again I ask if people in the church were allowed to masturbate without porn would that alleviate the need/desire to use it to such addictive levels? Would peoples natural urges be taken care of to the point that we wouldn’t need to have a 100 talks on it and abstinence?
Dax, I have to answer your first question with a question. Sorry. Where are people in church getting this information that it is at such additive levels? Is there a study? My point is that I don’t think it’s an issue that needs to be discussed with 100 talks in the first place.
To answer your second question about masturbating without pornography helping to alleviate the need to look at pornography, I honestly don’t know! Porn lost it’s luster with me as a teenager and I don’t really masturbate because I live with my non LDS girlfriend.(Not trying to be graphic)
What other churches, people or any other groups do any of us know that are so obsessed with porn/masturbation like we are? That to me is what I find fascinating.
Hypothetical question- would “responsibly made” pornography make it more legitimate or lessen some of the abhorrent aspects of it? Say for example a Utah based company started making films featuring married actors and somehow marketed to married couples or at least to adults only. Actors were in no way coerced or conditioned to make the films because of past abuse. Maybe the actors also do the filming and editing to decrease the number of people irresponsibly tempted by it. What if it were “soft”? What if it’s homemade and never shared but only viewed husband and wife? Again just a thought experiment. This may be the same as asking – is it morally acceptable under any circumstance to view pornography?
I don’t know the answer to that question. My wife enjoys reading pretty steamy romance novels (heaven bless them)
There is a sliding scale of acceptability and the farther you go to the more “permissive” end the more people agree that its unacceptable.
EDIT: btw I think pornogrpahy as its generally defined is negative but there are aspects of it that I frankly appreciate and other aspects I find hard to define.
Roadrunner wrote:Hypothetical question- would “responsibly made” pornography make it more legitimate or lessen some of the abhorrent aspects of it? Say for example a Utah based company started making films featuring married actors and somehow marketed to married couples or at least to adults only. Actors were in no way coerced or conditioned to make the films because of past abuse. Maybe the actors also do the filming and editing to decrease the number of people irresponsibly tempted by it. Again just a thought experiment.
This may be the same as asking – is it morally acceptable under any circumstance to view pornography?
I don’t know the answer to that question. My wife enjoys reading pretty steamy romance novels (heaven bless them)
There is a sliding scale of acceptability and the farther you go to the more “permissive” end the more people agree that its unacceptable.
Responsibly made? I think everyone would agree that anything with minors, animals etc is unacceptable. But what you find “permissive” and “unacceptable” sexually is totally subjective. Sexually, people like different things.
Does the church really view masturbation as a sin? Honest question. Is there any direct doctrine to support it? Pornography there is no question, but I have never heard anything concrete regarding masturbation. 66-90%? That’s a 24% margin of error, practically a quarter, making it meaningless as a figure. I would doubt the majority of women who were abused as children end up in porn. More likely abused spouses and other issues. Some probably become asexual as a result too.
I’m skeptical of such stats because if the porn industry is that bad, ironically, it’s not going to lend itself to accurate statistical analysis.
Nonetheless some women (considerably less than male fantasists would like) do enjoy working in the industry. Some just see it as work. Outside pornography, some women do sleep around, show off their breasts etc or pose in charity calendars. Not necessarily because they’re unhappy. There’s not the same sexual guilt as there once was. English speaking countries have a big hang up about nudity. In some places, it’s no big deal. In some countries eg Holland, open showers are often unisex. Saunas in Northern Europe are often mixed too. Then there’s National Geographic… schoolboys used to like that because of the completely unselfconscious tribal women in it. Always brown skinned….
Some porn doesn’t involve women at all of course. Some of it, like that notorious Pamela Anderson video is home made.
Ps Dax I never said I approved of child porn. However I do take issue with the fact the police glory in finding end users, rather than catching the original photographers who I think are even worse and do more damage. Stop it at source! Otherwise it’s like the notion that drugs will be stopped by arresting evey junkie, instead of hitting the big wigs.
AngryMormon wrote:Mackay11- Sorry to hear about your struggles with porn. Kudos to you for dealing with it.
I mean this with lots of love and not anger, but your response sort of pumped me up. Maybe it is because I am in recovery from drugs and alcohol. To me you sound like people at church and people I hear at meetings. I think you are painting it with a really broad stroke just because you have personally struggled with it. Just because I couldn’t drink responsibly, doesn’t mean others cannot. The problem is my addictive behavior, not how others view alcohol. IMHO, it’s a way to not accept responsibility. After all, most people can drink and look at porn without becoming full blown addicts.
If you think pornography deadens the soul etc.. , that’s your opinion and I respect that. However, just because you had a problem with it and couldn’t use it in moderation doesn’t mean that others can’t.
Mormons at church need to stop bashing porn or the industry and instead try focus on their own behavior! Clean your own house out before you go after someone elses house. Mormons should first stop selling (Marriots) and looking at pornography, then go after the porn industry. I feel like we are being hypocritical and puritanical.
Sorry everyone! I need to get off my soapbox and rant somewhere else.
I love a good rant. Please stay on the soapbox. It’s good to get other perspectives and I think you’re being very respectful in your feedback.
It’s given pause for thought. Maybe I’m ‘tubthumping’ about it because making it a big horrible thing is what I think helps me avoid it. Perhaps that instead, when I’m in a difficult emotional place, is could make it appealing again. I guess some of us want to self-abuse. Is that what addiction is (unknowingly?)? Is the issue that I see porn as this ‘big deal’ a big vile, poison. And sometimes (strangely) I want to give myself poison? There are far more extreme examples of this (self-harming). Am I on that spectrum.
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