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The Church Handbook of instruction (volume 1 for bishops and stake presidents) is online, although I’m sure the church isn’t happy about that. Anyway, after a fairly thorough search I can’t see that masturbation is mentioned any where in it. In other words it isn’t specifically wrong or prohibited. Of course there have been GAs that have spoken out against it in the past, but GAs have also spoken out against playing with face cards… I don’t think the church leadership really cares if people masturbate, but many of them think that it leads to other, more diabolical sins, so thus like to discourage it. Some bishops will ask youth etc. about it and ask them not to take the sacrament, but I think that is their interpretation, and neither doctrine, nor policy. That is interesting that masturbation is not in the CHI. So perhaps it is another cultural “doctrine” because I assure you that my brother was asked about it in his worthiness interviews and had to “repent” even without porn use. Perhaps if we as a church culturally and from the pulpit accepted masturbation as a natural outlet for our normal and healthy physical desires there would be no need for all the guilt trips and 100’s of talks about porn.
That would be fantastic instead of turning anything that arouses a person into a sin that needs to be controlled and stamped out. I swear we are heading towards burquas here if we don’t stop making our natural feelings a sin.
Angry Mormon…there is a huge debate in the medical/psychological communities about whether porn is a true addiction. Porn releases the same amount of endorphin as a hit of cocaine or other drugs, people will choose to continue to use it at the loss of jobs and personal relationships and there is a plateau affect which requires greater stimulus to achieve the same physiological results. There is a debate though about whether there are actual physical brain changes that occur as with substances that one ingests into the body so can it be called an addiction.
As far as addiction for the non-lds and lds world I believe it is like anything else….some people can use any substance numerous times and never become addicted or go to the next level of use, others can become hooked after one try.
It is interesting that I have 3 male non-lds friends from college, two of which are atheists and on the east coast, all 3 have lost jobs after being warned numerous times by their companies HR department to stop using porn on their work computers. One guy lost his house but was caught again this last month viewing it at work. Hmmmm that fits with a addiction. So I do not think that this is strictly an LDS problem though we do though handle it all wrong in my opinion.
RoadRunner….that is an interesting question…I do not know, there are sites with that already available I would tend to think that if you are doing it with your spouse and they are into viewing it with you then that is between you all.
Again I think it is natural for men and women to be aroused and seek out some form of porn. What is not natural is the instant access 24/7 and the intensity and darkness that has occurred in the last 15 years.
SamBee….so glad to know that you are against child porn, little worried that you think that the guys viewing it are small potatoes. I assume you do not realize that many viewers also produce/take and swap materials with other users but hey, if your fine with the guy viewing it then being your kids overnight scout camp leader good for you.
Oh and the stats are incorrect. They actually think the % is higher but because of the shame and guilt many do not admit to it when being interviewed. I am also not saying that all children that are sexually abused end up in the industry. Oh but you seem to think that it is just a job choice and that many women these days if they really admitted it, really do enjoy being violated by 5 men at one time if there is money involved. Sure, keep saying that and eventually it will become true right? Sorry I guess im just being melodramatic.
Sarcasm aside, I do really wonder if the church taught that masturbation was acceptable then would we as a culture have a much healthier sexual attitude in all areas?
I truly think it would alleviate all of the guilt and shame for having normal sexual desires. I also think it would help with people not marrying to young and many more people could stop feeling like they are awful for being normal! I also think it would decrease porn use and keep it at a normal level for most people.
Loved your post Dax. I think we should call a spade a spade. Re. masturbation. As much as I agree that it should be less stigmatised, can it also be degenerative or addictive?
I guess one thing Mormons can’t handle is the phrase ‘in moderation.’
If there more ‘in moderations’ and less ‘nevers’ but the meat issue in the WoW shows me that if it’s permitted in moderation then people just ignore it and go over the top.
Quote:Some bishops will ask youth etc. about it and ask them not to take the sacrament, but I think that is their interpretation, and neither doctrine, nor policy.
I believe those Bishops are wrong. Period. However, lacking clear statements (which, frankly, I don’t want, since it opens the door for lots of other clear statements on subjects where I don’t want them), I can understand, unfortunately, enforcing personal interpretations of the Law of Chastity – just like Bishops who ask, incorrectly, about caffeinated drinks when asking about the Word of Wisdom.
That darned unwritten order of things clouds too many things – and I say that while also believing we ask WAY too many questions in situations where we really don’t want some of the answers we might get.
[Now, to put on my admin hat:Everyone, please be careful about sarcasm and hyperbole. This can be an emotional topic, so please read your comments before submitting them and ask yourself how you would react if someone else was saying it to you.] Thanks McKay11! I’m not sure if masterbutation without aids would become addictive. I think that the course we are on now as a church will only cause more issues for everyone.
We see that with the extreme guilt and shame placed on normal sexual desires and in the push to control women and make women responsible for men’s thoughts.
Ray…I will try to remember that all post should be reread first, thanks.
Also loved the thought about not wanting to many things clarified. However then you get the crazy culture deciding what is correct. I guess you can’t win!
I’m sorry if my post about overcoming addictions in this life started any arguments with anyone. I was just trying to get some perspective on the subject. I realize that the topic of sex itself is a sensitive subject. This subject right now is pretty interesting. That’s why I love this forum. You can talk openly about a subject like this without being condemned. I’m sorry if anything in my last post offended anyone. Dax wrote:…Many sites that depict young/horrific scenes are using enslaved women/children and that includes right here in the US. In the US the pimps/animals prey on runaways or even outright kidnap girls and then “turn them out”. There is a whole prostitution circuit that is used by these guys that removes the girls far from their home towns and gets them hooked on drugs….I know that most of the LDS guys or men in general do not think about the person in the films other than how she makes him feel. If you stop and think about some of the warped things out there do you really think oh yes she must love that. Really? As Ray said excessive use will warp your view of what healthy sex is suppose to be and look like and allows for sexual exploration of behaviors that most men would find horrific if it was their wife or daughter.
Old-Timer wrote:DA, I draw a very clear line between addictions and inclinations / urges. I hope nobody who reads this post and my comments thinks I equate all cases of looking at pornographic material with addiction – or even somewhat regular viewing as addiction. I don’t equate them – but I also understand that addiction to pornography is real and powerful, just like any other addictions…I also hope it is crystal clear that I don’t view nudity as pornography – even in cases where the nudity is full and complete…Having said that, hardcore porn, created specifically to be marketed and sold and, therefore, be as “compelling” or addictive as possible, has absolutely no redeeming value – and the conditions under which it is produced are abominable in many cases.
Cadence wrote:Ray makes an interesting point. The side effects of porn can be devastating in the lives of those creating it. Not all but I am sure many women are manipulated into performing in porn. It is a sad commentary on human existence that women have since the beginning of humanity been used to satisfy the desires of men. So I would agree porn should be avoided for this reason alone. If there is no demand there is no porn. That however is never going to happen.
I hate the idea of women being abused or taken advantage of against their will as much as anyone. However, I guess I just don’t believe this is always the case for all porn with no exceptions. When I see famous well paid porn stars or no-name amateurs that maybe only do one sex tape and then move on with their lives I have a hard time believing they are really being hurt that much by this long-term. I definitely don’t believe most of the Playboy models feel like victims or think that this wasn’t their choice. I understand that Ray already doesn’t consider nudity the same as porn but my wife certainly does. If I told my wife I want to see pictures of naked women and I don’t see what the big deal is or what it would hurt if I did this once in a while she would probably file for divorce and almost everyone we know would tell her she is right. Basically the idea that porn is always wrong and that anything remotely erotic is porn makes it non-negotiable and almost impossible to even discuss in a reasonable way.
When you exaggerate how wrong porn supposedly is and try make it into more than it really is many men will stop listening and feel like you just don’t understand if it never seemed half that bad in their own experience and they don’t really see the harm. As far as indirectly supporting the porn industry the way I see it is that millions of men are going to keep on viewing it regardless of what I do so it is never going to go away in the US no matter how wrong people act like it is. Personally I think that even if all porn was eliminated somehow the end result would actually be more infidelity, prostitution, and abuse of various forms on average because porn is basically a relatively safe and inexpensive outlet for some of the pent-up frustrations and dissatisfaction many men feel and now if you force them to bottle it up and live with it with no relief whatsoever that’s when some of them will really crack under pressure and throw caution to the wind in a reckless and destructive way.
Quote:I hate the idea of women being abused or taken advantage of against their will as much as anyone. However, I guess I just don’t believe this is always the case for all porn with no exceptions.
Nobody has made that claim here. Just saying.
🙂 To be clear there is a huge difference between “soft” and “hard” core porn. Playboy is more celebration of say the woman form, hard core stuff can be much darker. I’m glad DevilsAdvacote that it seems like an exaggeration to you about sexual human trafficking. That means most likely you have never been exposed or touched personally by it. I hope you never are.
Simply go to the FBI page on human trafficking to get an understanding of what is happening here in the US. Again, not saying that the playboy models are being forced into the magazine, but if you are watching a hard core scene with a girl that looks like she’s “barely legal” it may be much more sinister than you want to acknowledge. Also you can pretty much bet that a lot of the hard core stuff from overseas is using underage girls/people being exploited.
Sorry if you just turned off listening but that doesn’t change the reality of much of the hard core stuff. Of course men wouldn’t see the harm in porn because they are not the one living through it (the hard core stuff) and the aftermath.
Tim wrote:The Church Handbook of instruction (volume 1 for bishops and stake presidents) is online, although I’m sure the church isn’t happy about that. Anyway, after a fairly thorough search I can’t see that masturbation is mentioned any where in it. In other words it isn’t specifically wrong or prohibited. Of course there have been GAs that have spoken out against it in the past, but GAs have also spoken out against playing with face cards… I don’t think the church leadership really cares if people masturbate, but many of them think that it leads to other, more diabolical sins, so thus like to discourage it. Some bishops will ask youth etc. about it and ask them not to take the sacrament, but I think that is their interpretation, and neither doctrine, nor policy.
Masturbation is called “self-abuse” in the CHI. Note in the following where it falls, compares to what most of the Apologists consider what we do on StayLDS…
CHI 2010 Section 6.71 wrote:When a disciplinary Council isNot NecessaryFailure to Comply with Some Church Standards
A disciplinary council should not be held to discipline or threaten members who do not comply with Word of Wisdom, who are struggling with
pornographyor self-abuse…. ….
When a disciplinary council isMandatoryMurder…
Incest…
Child Abuse…
ApostasyI haven’t heard anyone call us murderers or child abusers, wayfarer. 
Dax wrote:To be clear there is a huge difference between “soft” and “hard” core porn. Playboy is more celebration of say the woman form, hard core stuff can be much darker.
I’m glad DevilsAdvacote that it seems like an exaggeration to you about sexual human trafficking. That means most likely you have never been exposed or touched personally by it. I hope you never are.
Simply go to the FBI page on human trafficking to get an understanding of what is happening here in the US. Again, not saying that the playboy models are being forced into the magazine, but if you are watching a hard core scene with a girl that looks like she’s “barely legal” it may be much more sinister than you want to acknowledge. Also you can pretty much bet that a lot of the hard core stuff from overseas is using underage girls/people being exploited.
Sorry if you just turned off listening but that doesn’t change the reality of much of the hard core stuff. Of course men wouldn’t see the harm in porn because they are not the one living through it (the hard core stuff) and the aftermath.
You’ve come up with a number of strawmen, and one statistic you more or less admitted was a guesstimate. Your claim could be correct but is unquantifable.
Of course you’ve pointed out the difference between HP and SP. I was referring mainly to the latter.
You also completely misconstrued my comments on kiddie porn. I never justified any of it, I merely said the priority should be to get those who source it.
(Edit to add… phone chewed up about five of my replies so have to cut this down)
There is a sinister infantilization in our culture. Ever wondered why many women (and to a lesser extent men) get rid of ALL their body hair these days? Why fashion models like Kate Moss look about fourteen and barely have breasts? Why Katy Perry quasi-erotic videos look like teletubby land? Why boybands look androgynous? Did you ever see Justin Bieber’s Xmas video? Puppy love indeed (featuring a scantily clad and gyrating Mariah Carey)
Justin Bieber’s video (aimed at children? Or adults?) 
[img]http://www.mediaite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/mariah-carey-justin-bieber-christmas.jpg [/img] Katy Perry – more inapproproate juxtaposition of childish and adult imagery.
12? 14? 18? Apart from anorexia what else does this suggest?
There seems to be a dichotomy between those who think all porn models enjoy their job and those who think they are all mind controlled slaves. Neither extreme is true. Taking off your clothes and posing is not the same as being tortured. These are quite different.
Some forms of porn don’t involve women at all either.
Soft porn is also much, much bigger than hardcore, let alone extreme forms.
If you want to know about people trafficking by the way, I suggest you look into American agribusiness and the seedier end of the textile industry as well. Plenty there. Appalling pay, and threat of deportation. Whole sections of your economy rely on immigrants too. No healthcare, bad housing etc. People getting injured and killed… But that doesn’t involve so much sex, so less moral outrage.
The idea that all women are sexually passive is a lie. Some are, but so are some men.
At one bar/cafe I go to, you get quite a range of people. One is a dominatrix. (I don’t support S&M see my earlier comment) Everyone knows what she does, and she’ll tell you. Tell her she’s exploited and she’d probably give you a free session then and there. She’s bigger than me and earns more.
At high school, a girl’s diary was stolen. Some of her sexual fantasies were quite tame compared to what you describe and would make your hair curl (large dogs anyone?). She was highly active with both men and women (of her own age). She saw herself as a feminist – my body, my choice etc – I gather she still does.
Headshake…..sigh!
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