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It happened in my ward. First let me say that I’m not an employee of the Elders Quorum Moving Company but at the same time that’s not a huge problem in my ward because we have few movers (and most of them seem to be moving out).
This apparently happened last week, and apparently the church is having some trouble with it’s integrated email system they use to email members (I realized I wasn’t getting emails, I just chalked it up to no news being good news). Email wasn’t really the problem though. From what I’m told, an email went out around Tuesday for help moving (including trucks) on Friday during the day (that’s right Friday when people who have jobs work). By Thursday the RSP, sender of the email, had no responses and called the bishop who was out of town. He passed it on to the EQP who basically said to call the ministering brothers. It’s not apparent that call ever happened because the ministering brother is old and unable to lift things he is very good about lifting the phone. So come Friday it was time to move and nobody (except the RSP, also elderly) came. The movee was also an older woman (70s) who is sort of on again/off again, moves between local wards somewhat regularly, etc. Apparently they were both miffed that no one came, and I don’t think that’s totally invalid. At the same time, a little self reliance, better planning, better communication, and better coordination might have been in order.
(I might also throw out there that from my understanding of ministering this was all backwards. It should have been the ministering brothers coordinating the whole thing to begin with, not the RSP and not her attempting to push off on the bishop or EQP.)
Just curious since I live in a struggling and declining ward… Would this have been different where you live? Would it have been done the “right” way?
My thoughts are that the email system is worthless or next to worthless. Calling ward members is also difficult (bears little fruit) because few in our society answer their phones. This is in part because older generations do not build their contacts from the ward directory in tools – the newer generations are better at being tech savvy but have jobs and families to work around. A possible solution is to construct a very large phone messaging group and request a yes or no response so it can be known who received the message. The problem is that creating the phone messing group takes a lot of time and needs to be done before there is a need. Tools do not provide group messaging.
Another approach I have used is to have a general service and emergency (or short notice) service sign up. The quorum members sign up for hours they are willing to provide and the quorum leadership will insure they have the opportunity to complete their goal. An interesting side note here is that I have had better response to this from less-active members. This is also labor intensive but by keeping track of who has completed their hours and who has not provided or behind on services can allow some leverage – though I dislike shaming. I have found two things about service. Initially few are excited to be bothered to provide service but most are grateful to provide service when completed but this comes with two caveats. First if lots (more than expected) show up for the service and second – it gets accomplished quicker than expected.
Another possibility is to have a quorum discussion (lesson) about service – similar to this thread. This may help to tailor something more suitable to a particular ward dynamics.
I believe providing service is an acquired taste and is part of spiritual discipline. The youth should also be encouraged to participate as part of their spiritual training. I have a daughter that is very much into various feminists movements – I have suggested to her that she make herself available for quorum service projects (especially moving) in preparation for her receiving the priesthood.
Watcher, I wasn’t asking for “how to” or the virtues of service. I know what the failures were. I was asking if the above scenario does or could happen in other places or are we just a “bad” ward? But since I’m here, I’ll say the “phone messaging group” you are suggesting would seem be text because you suggest an acknowledgement of the message. That might work in other places, probably not my ward where at 62 I’m still in the younger quarter of the demographic, and many in the older half don’t have cell phones (Luddites or just “too old”). I think there’s probably a higher probability of an answer of an actual phone call because of that older demographic. I, however, don’t answer my phone when I don’t recognize the number or when I see it’s a church leader and they’re probably calling to ask me to do something (since Tools are integrated on my phone). They can leave a message that I will probably listen to and delete. Oh, and that older half to 2/3 of the ward are incapable of helping with moves (or much else for that matter).
As to youth, note that in this scenario it was a Friday – the very few youth we have (and if you’re talking mostly about boys, there are 3 deacon age and that’s it) were in school (just as the men and women who are physically able were at work).
And FWIW I don’t consider this move to have been an emergency – one of the biggest problems in this scenario was failure to plan and ask ahead. And also FWIW, a neighboring ward does have a major issue with expectations of the EQMC with almost weekly requests. Their EQP, supported by their bishop, put a moratorium on moves for people who could afford to pay to have it done.
I live in a relatively lower income ward for this area. Our service is quite different than the service about which I hear in the other wards around us. They do bigger projects. We do more service.
Moving in our ward is coordinated and, generally, done quite well. Last minute moves still get assistance, but it is understood that the participation will be lighter.
We have wonderful ward leaders who understand “real life struggles” from both sides of the issue.
As a recipient of moving help from the ward when I have needed it, I feel that it can be a huge way to help people feel cared for. I also am a big one asking for a few days (3 or less) of meals to be brought in after a medical issue requiring recovery. Another big “service” that could help me to feel cared for is if leadership served my kiddos and made them feel included/welcome (I know this is a big and difficult task and I keep my expectations low). So I like that help moving happens. I also am in a ward with an increasingly elderly/infirm population and the moving brigade is not what it once was.
I agree that there can be a huge gap in expectations between the person needing the move and the people that show up to help. Nothing is worse than showing up to help someone move and they haven’t even packed…
The ward could do a list of responsibilities of the owner vs. what will be provided by the helpers but even that seems to be open for abuse because there is no real enforcement mechanism.
I fully understand and respect wards that decide not to do this.
Watcher wrote:
I have a daughter that is very much into various feminists movements – I have suggested to her that she make herself available for quorum service projects (especially moving) in preparation for her receiving the priesthood.
I know that this is intended as a joke but it also feels sexist. Allow me to explain, helping people move is not a priesthood duty. It is a gendered responsibility that we have assigned similar to taking out the trash or changing the oil. They are tasks that we traditionally associate with males but could be done equally well by females. And no amount of helping people move by your daughter will help her receive the priesthood any faster. Nobody would ever say “She does such a great job helping people moveImagine that there was a sporting club that only allowed males to join and your daughter didn’t think this to be fair because she wanted to join. Suppose that you told your daughter that she should do as many male centric activities as possible (like helping people move) in preparation for being allowed to ultimately join this cub.
I do think that it is relevant that GBH said that all it would take for women to receive the priesthood would be for the president of the church to receive a revelation on the subject. Therefore, I can imagine a future where women do hold the priesthood and it doesn’t seem to make them more male to hold the priesthood. Also, in this imagined future, the men do not seem any less male nor more female for not having priesthood ordination as a distinguishing characteristic. Similarly, it doesn’t make men any less manly because women are allowed to drive cars.
In my ward, I’ve only heard about one moving service project in the last year, even though more households than that have moved in and out. In previous years, our last EQP was very email-happy, sending out multiple emails a week to the EQ. Most of the emails tried to coordinate various service projects, from moves to rides to work for people. Since getting a new EQP, those emails have stopped. Since you’re looking for perspective on other wards, I’ll throw in my friend’s experience. He and his father had the calling of “Ward Moving Coordinator”. They were supposed to be the ones organizing all the moves happening within the ward, scheduling them, finding volunteers, etc. What ended up happening was they pretty much did all of the moves by themselves, only ever getting help from another brother in his 70s on occasion.
Roy wrote:
So I like that help moving happens. I also am in a ward with an increasingly elderly/infirm population and the moving brigade is not what it once was.
My ward has been on a decline since before COVID, and I am not exaggerating when I say my age puts me in the younger part of the ward. The majority of our ward are in their 70s and 80s, and quite a few more are 60s. When you factor in an average Sunday attendance of around 80, pickins get pretty slim for everything. Men and women who once were the literal backbone of the ward and helped with everything now use canes and walkers and while I don’t think their desire to help has dimished greatly, their ability has.Quote:I agree that there can be a huge gap in expectations between the person needing the move and the people that show up to help. Nothing is worse than showing up to help someone move and they haven’t even packed…
Showing up and not being packed has happened, but I don’t think it has recently happened, and this particular lady moves somewhat frequently and probably was packed. Had she planned it on Saturday and got the word out some more it’s likely shoe would have gotten the few that come almost every time – but we mostly work on weekdays.
Our ward does OK with the meals thing, and that’s actually a more common one. The older sisters can still cook for someone and are usually happy to do it.
Roy wrote:
Watcher wrote:
I have a daughter that is very much into various feminists movements – I have suggested to her that she make herself available for quorum service projects (especially moving) in preparation for her receiving the priesthood.
I know that this is intended as a joke but it also feels sexist. Allow me to explain, helping people move is not a priesthood duty. It is a gendered responsibility that we have assigned similar to taking out the trash or changing the oil. They are tasks that we traditionally associate with males but could be done equally well by females. And no amount of helping people move by your daughter will help her receive the priesthood any faster. Nobody would ever say “She does such a great job helping people moveImagine that there was a sporting club that only allowed males to join and your daughter didn’t think this to be fair because she wanted to join. Suppose that you told your daughter that she should do as many male centric activities as possible (like helping people move) in preparation for being allowed to ultimately join this cub.
I do think that it is relevant that GBH said that all it would take for women to receive the priesthood would be for the president of the church to receive a revelation on the subject. Therefore, I can imagine a future where women do hold the priesthood and it doesn’t seem to make them more male to hold the priesthood. Also, in this imagined future, the men do not seem any less male nor more female for not having priesthood ordination as a distinguishing characteristic. Similarly, it doesn’t make men any less manly because women are allowed to drive cars.
Agreed. I mildly went off on someone the other day when they referred to me as the breadwinner (as I talk about retirement). Without extra pay I sometimes get my wife earns more than I do. and we’re fine with that. It’s 2022, there aren’t breadwinners by defined gender roles any more. My daughter is a doctor and earns more than her significant other. My son’s wife in vet school will very likely earn more than he does even with his own doctorate. Sexism is still as alive and well as racism (maybe even more so) in the CoJCoLDS.
There’s lots of turnover in my ward. During the course of about 12-18 months half the ward moves out and a new half moves in. Two years time and you’ll only recognize about a dozen families that haven’t moved. It’s mostly a combo of young marrieds only here long enough for school or until they can find better living arrangements. We see a lot of moves. I don’t know the channels for how the requests work their way there, but eventually the requests gets back to the EQP and he uses the built-in ward email lists to email everyone in the quorum.
I’m not sure how I feel about working through the ministers. They feel like unnecessary middle men. If the request is going to land there eventually, just go direct to the EQP.
Half the time the families will go directly to the EQP anyway and then the ministers are subject to public shame and guilt during the next quorum meeting as the EQP explains to everyone present what the ministers should have done and should be doing. Then an hour or so later the bishop will duck in during his 5 minutes of free time during the 2nd hour and ask, “Who are their ministers!?!?” with a tinge of irritation in his voice.
That’s how I’ve seen it play out over the years.
PazamaManX wrote:
Since you’re looking for perspective on other wards, I’ll throw in my friend’s experience. He and his father had the calling of “Ward Moving Coordinator”. They were supposed to be the ones organizing all the moves happening within the ward, scheduling them, finding volunteers, etc. What ended up happening was they pretty much did all of the moves by themselves, only ever getting help from another brother in his 70s on occasion.
Even when we were a much larger, younger, more robust ward it was always the same few who came to any project. It’s always the same few now and that usually includes the bishop (retired, mid-60s but healthy and well). He was out of town in this instance, but again since the others who come have jobs it might have been just him and the RSP (late 70s, one of those people you worry when she drives).
nibbler wrote:
I’m not sure how I feel about working through the ministers. They feel like unnecessary middle men. If the request is going to land there eventually, just go direct to the EQP.Half the time the families will go directly to the EQP anyway and then the ministers are subject to public shame and guilt during the next quorum meeting as the EQP explains to everyone present what the ministers should have done and should be doing. Then an hour or so later the bishop will duck in during his 5 minutes of free time during the 2nd hour and ask, “Who are their ministers!?!?” with a tinge of irritation in his voice.
That’s how I’ve seen it play out over the years.
That’s part of the point of the ministers. They aren’t supposed to be the middle men they’re supposed to be the direct providers. I can see the EQP being involved when it’s people coming in from outside the ward and doing the unloading because they don’t have ministers there yet, but a smart EQP would do something like Panama alluded to – have someone whose job that is (IOW delegate). The way this should work with ministering, both EQ and RS, is when the person/family has a need they contact their minister (who should be aware already unless it’s an emergency/urgent kind of thing). The minister does that work of making the announcement in quorum/RS, making phone calls, sending emails or texts, etc. All those things are meant to be decentralized, allowing the EQP, RSP and bishop to focus on what they’re supposed to focus on (and that’s not moving people). I get the tinge of irritation in the bishop’s – it is a culture change but needs to work and people need to understand that their first recourse is not the EQP, RSP or bishop. The days of just dumping everything in the laps of the ward leadership are supposed to be a thing of the past (understanding that culture changes do take time and effort).
The neighboring ward I mentioned earlier that put the moratorium on moving people except in certain circumstances is similar to yours Nibbler. There is a core membership there but lots of medical types (students and residents) moving in and out constantly. It’s not like they won’t help but they’re very upfront about the idea there should be no expectation of help. There’s a guy there that owns a small apartment complex and that’s his bread and butter.
DarkJedi wrote:Even when we were a much larger, younger, more robust ward it was always the same few who came to any project. It’s always the same few now and that usually includes the bishop (retired, mid-60s but healthy and well). He was out of town in this instance, but again since the others who come have jobs it might have been just him and the RSP (late 70s, one of those people you worry when she drives).
I believe his ward is somewhat similar to yours. He lives in what is mostly a retirement town, so most people aren’t physically able to help and those few who can have jobs.
I’ll mention another thing that my ward has done from time to time. Every once in awhile, a clipboard will go around during Sunday school with a form for people to request service. At the top of the paper it essentially, but gently, says to only ask for help with things you are doing yourself (IOW don’t ask for something to be done completely for you) and to not expect help just for filling out the form.
My guess is it usually comes out after leadership and/or the missionaries have gotten too many requests for service.
PazamaManX wrote:
I’ll mention another thing that my ward has done from time to time. Every once in awhile, a clipboard will go around during Sunday school with a form for people to request service. At the top of the paper it essentially, but gently, says to only ask for help with things you are doing yourself (IOW don’t ask for something to be done completely for you) and to not expect help just for filling out the form.
I once was in a ward where they passed around a clipboard of talents/skills that you might be willing to help others with. I felt that this was a great opportunity to take an inventory of what kinds of talent that was in the ward and help pair up people in need of helps with those that might have the skills to provide help (or at the very least can help you track down paid help from a reputable service provider). For example, I put down that I could help people in making or refining a resume. I would be happy to do that for everyone that I know.
Roy wrote:I once was in a ward where they passed around a clipboard of talents/skills that you might be willing to help others with. I felt that this was a great opportunity to take an inventory of what kinds of talent that was in the ward and help pair up people in need of helps with those that might have the skills to provide help (or at the very least can help you track down paid help from a reputable service provider). For example, I put down that I could help people in making or refining a resume. I would be happy to do that for everyone that I know.
I like that idea.
:thumbup: That sounds like a much more efficient way to volunteer your skills or find people who are willing and able to help with something. How well would you say that worked in that ward?
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