A Simple but Important Step: Homosexuality and Missions

[Anonymous]

My mission was one of the easiest times in my life in regards to controlling sexual attractions, and I know I’m not alone in this. My homosexual feelings were at their lowest point in my life since puberty. What you may not be considering is that gay Mormons have a lot of practice at suppressing sexual thoughts and energies. Unlike straight teens whose feelings are encouraged, there just is no place for same sex attractions in young Mormon culture. Emotional dependency, however, can happen, and did to me for a couple of my companions.

I have to admit I’ve rolled my eyes several times as I’ve followed this discussion. I guess I kind of understand where this fear is coming from, but it just strikes me as ridiculous (Just like those parents who are terrified that their sons might be on a campout and have to share a tent with a gay person! Lord have mercy!)

I mean no disrespect, but come on.

The theme of gay missionaries has been explored in cinema, however: Latter Days and The Falls being two recent examples. I think both of the films were written by RMs who ended up leaving the church to get some peace in their lives. Both are rated R. These cases are very rare. There are many gay missionaries who have great experiences, and for whom their missions were a welcome respite from the expectations to date and marry.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

There are many gay missionaries who have great experiences, and for whom their missions were a welcome respite from the expectations to date and marry.

That is both profound and sad. Our culture is really messed up when it comes to this issue. It’s getting better, slowly, but it’s still messed up.

[Anonymous]

I see what you’re saying Ray but I think anybody would need more self discipline if they were rooming, eating, conversing and laughing with and dressing near somebody of the opposite OR same sex for a period of time if that sex were the orientation they were attracted to. Many straight men don’t need to be in love to have those desires, is it different for gays? Different for missionaries? “s/he doesn’t act on it automatically (at the very least unless both are attracted to each other, and, often, not even then).” Is this something we should depend on in real life on a mission? I think no, even if your answer may be different.

I also mean no disrespect turinturambar but why is it so ridicules for a parent be concerned about their child sharing a tent with a gay person? Unless maybe they know that person as well as a sibling or cousin or is a good friend, I think that could make a difference. It’s not a judgmental thing, is it possible that a gay scout would not need to exercise the same control that a straight scout tenting with a female? It’s not judgmental to remove the temptation. I want to be open and sensitive and learn more but at the same time I want to be realistic and not avoid facts and questions that may be not PC.

[Anonymous]

Yes, we ought to depend on teaching our members self-control in handling physical attractions.

Also, outside of rape or other sexual assault, sexual activity of any kind is going to happen only for two people who are attracted to each other. The analogy of a boy and a girl in the same tent only works if 1) that boy and girl are attracted to each other and both lack self-control (since, for example, my wife and I dated for two years before my mission, were alone a lot and never crossed any lines that would require confession or repentance), and 2) you are comparing it to two people of the same sex who are homosexual AND attracted to each other. One gay youth and one straight youth does not a risk create, since there will be no mutual attraction – and, in our current climate, the straight youth is more likely to be a danger to the gay youth than vice-versa, unfortunately.

[Anonymous]

Hi Kipper.

I guess it would help me if I knew exactly what you fear will happen if a gay scout is in the same tent as your son?

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Yes, we ought to depend on teaching our members self-control in handling physical attractions.

Also, outside of rape or other sexual assault, sexual activity of any kind is going to happen only for two people who are attracted to each other. The analogy of a boy and a girl in the same tent only works if 1) that boy and girl are attracted to each other and both lack self-control (since, for example, my wife and I dated for two years before my mission, were alone a lot and never crossed any lines that would require confession or repentance), and 2) you are comparing it to two people of the same sex who are homosexual AND attracted to each other. One gay youth and one straight youth does not a risk create, since there will be no mutual attraction – and, in our current climate, the straight youth is more likely to be a danger to the gay youth than vice-versa, unfortunately.

Ok, I get that it takes two and how that applies here up to a point. I also think any time you have one person of any gender attracted to another person of any gender in a potential intimate setting there is a risk of an advancement. I’m not sure if you’re OK with that or if you don’t think that is possible. It doesn’t take two for that and one could be persistent over the other, driven by natural desires. I know that from experience in several types of situations, even being on the receiving end of what we are talking about here. I also know that young people will go along with something they don’t want or they don’t think is right. There could even be an experiment or discovery for that person receiving the advances. It’s just not that sterile as you would like it to be. The straight youth is more likely to be a danger to the gay youth than vice-versa is old school thinking if you’re talking about physical abuse. We have spent several years teaching acceptance in priesthood locally and I’ve seen a positive paradigm shift. I expect that would be true just about everywhere.

[Anonymous]

turinturambar wrote:

Hi Kipper.

I guess it would help me if I knew exactly what you fear will happen if a gay scout is in the same tent as your son?

It’s not totally about fear or judgement turinturambar. I think the scales of justice have properly shifted but maybe over-corrected a bit and practical concerns may be overlooked on the grounds of acceptance and fairness. I admit I haven’t learned everything I need to but in the course of moving on some things need to be addressed even if it is difficult to hear. The straight community are not going to be the only ones who need to understand some things they didn’t before understand.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

The straight youth is more likely to be a danger to the gay youth than vice-versa is old school thinking if you’re talking about physical abuse.

No, it’s factually accurate and very different thinking than when I was growing up – and still is in lots of places.

Quote:

The straight community are not going to be the only ones who need to understand some things they didn’t before understand.

Like what, precisely? You didn’t answer turinturambar’s question.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

You didn’t answer turinturambar’s question.

I think I did in my reply to you.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

It’s just not that sterile as you would like it to be.

I never said or implied it is “sterile”. Seriously, that isn’t in what I said. I mentioned the possibility of sexual assault as the exception to what I wrote as the general rule.

So, if I am reading your comment correctly, your concern is that a gay youth will sexually assault a straight youth – and that a typical gay youth is more of a threat to a typical straight youth than the typical straight youth is to the typical gay youth. Is that correct?

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

It’s just not that sterile as you would like it to be.

I never said or implied it is “sterile”. Seriously, that isn’t in what I said. I mentioned the possibility of sexual assault as the exception to what I wrote as the general rule.

So, if I am reading your comment correctly, your concern is that a gay youth will sexually assault a straight youth. Is that correct?

Please, you really think that’s what I said? I’m not going to continue this if you’re going to take me there.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I also think any time you have one person of any gender attracted to another person of any gender in a potential intimate setting there is a risk of an advancement. I’m not sure if you’re OK with that or if you don’t think that is possible. It doesn’t take two for that and one could be persistent over the other, driven by natural desires. I know that from experience in several types of situations, even being on the receiving end of what we are talking about here. I also know that young people will go along with something they don’t want or they don’t think is right. There could even be an experiment or discovery for that person receiving the advances.

I don’t know what you mean by the statement above, if what I interpreted is wrong. I am seriously trying to understand, so please correct me. What did you mean by the statement above?

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, I have to get up really early tomorrow and will be traveling all day. I have to log off now but will check back in tomorrow night, whenever I can.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Kipper: I think the scales of justice have properly shifted but maybe over-corrected a bit and practical concerns may be overlooked on the grounds of acceptance and fairness.

I can see this. I’m glad we’re moving toward a country wherein a person cannot legally be discriminated against in housing and employment based on real or perceived sexual orientation. I also agree that there are some LGBT folks and their allies who take this way too far, and wish to engage in reverse discrimination. In a constitutional democracy, it takes time and collaboration to work these things out. I think the same sex marriage thing is a good example. I believe that 1st and 14th amendment rights can be balanced–this doesn’t have to be a zero sum game. I think in the process, we can also work out the logistical details.

Back to the discussion at hand: having gay missionaries and gay scouts brings up similar concerns–can a homosexual young man control himself in situations where other young men are dressing, and such. I actually think the discussion in the NFL last spring about Michael Sam is very on point. Here is a quote from an interview with Giant’s Terrell Thomas:

Quote:

“I think society is ready for it and America’s ready for it, but I don’t think the NFL is,” Thomas said. “As a player, all you want to know is if he can play. That’s on the field. But in the locker room, it’s different. There’s a lot of talk and joking around, and some guys walk around completely naked all the time, and they might not want to do that anymore. When you add that situation to the mix, I think it’s going to make some people uncomfortable.

“Things are changing, and certain change is inevitable. We have to look at him like a brother and can’t treat him any different. But that could be difficult for some people, just the way our locker rooms work.”

Pressed on the likelihood that he’s already played on teams with gay players, Thomas said, “I’m pretty sure I have.

“But there’s a difference between knowing and not knowing that changes a lot of things,” he said. “You’re talking about playing in the NFL, the grind, the brotherhood, the joking that goes along with it. The locker room may not be ready for that, because it’s the kind of thing that changes everything.

“It may make guys feel like they have to change the way they carry themselves and some of the things they say. You’re talking about a league where things have been done a certain way for a long time, and now you’re going to expect people to change, and people may not know how to do that the right way.”

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/10442283/terrell-thomas-new-york-giants-says-nfl-not-ready-gay-player You can read other parts of this discussion by doing a google search.

I think Thomas brings up a few points that apply to our situation:

1-Some people are ready for openly gay people, and others are not

2-Some men don’t want gay men seeing them naked

3-Scouts and missionaries have already worked with gay young men, they just didn’t know it

(As an aside: I realize I’m focusing on the male experience here, but this is as applicable to lesbian mormons as gay mormons)

I guess I’m trying to understand the anxiety from the other side of the issue; especially parents who want to protect their children. I don’t mind sharing some personal details here if it helps the discussion. I know this is just my experience, but I think it might apply to other gay people’s experiences as well. [Edit: I shared some anecdotes to the effect that I think closeted gay boys and men are anxious in these situations and try to avoid trouble, but thought better of including the details.]

Gay men in the closet live with enormous anxiety every day of their lives. Believe me when I say that we avoid looking and thinking about other men in these situations. Things are different for straight young men. Of course there is a religious injunction not to look on a woman to lust after her. But it is expected that young men and women will flirt, date, hold hands, and snuggle. Because of this, I think the chances are much greater that straight boys and girls alone will get into trouble than a gay boy surrounded by straight boys. There will always be the outlier who is predatory. But I think that gay mormon boys who are serious about doing the right thing are going to avoid trouble as much as possible, especially if they want to stay in the closet. I can honestly say that while I was on the mission this stuff became a non-problem. I saw the other missionaries as brothers, and we were compatriots in a great work. Attraction just wasn’t an issue then. I think this is the case for most gay missionaries. I could be wrong.

We’re here. We’re in the church. We were one of your mission companions. We were one of your buddies. Maybe we’re your EQP or your bishop. Or your home-teaching companion. I think the point is that I hope that straight members of the church can get used to us being part of the body of Christ. We deserve to have experiences in the boy scouts and on missions. Same sex attraction is not a sin, and cannot be eliminated or repented of. Just like young straight men who may have done something to disqualify themselves from missionary service, young gay men who are messing around have to face the same consequences. But the rest of us are/were just as worthy to go as the others. No gay young man should be excluded from scouts or a mission if he is worthy and wants to do it.

Not long ago, it was assumed that all gay men were perverts. Maybe that idea is still out there. But it simply isn’t true.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

I also think any time you have one person of any gender attracted to another person of any gender in a potential intimate setting there is a risk of an advancement. I’m not sure if you’re OK with that or if you don’t think that is possible. It doesn’t take two for that and one could be persistent over the other, driven by natural desires. I know that from experience in several types of situations, even being on the receiving end of what we are talking about here. I also know that young people will go along with something they don’t want or they don’t think is right. There could even be an experiment or discovery for that person receiving the advances.

I don’t know what you mean by the statement above, if what I interpreted is wrong. I am seriously trying to understand, so please correct me. What did you mean by the statement above?

Simply this, why would a gay youth (or young adult or adult male or female) be more trustworthy in a potential intimate setting than a straight? Why would the recipient of advances…child, young adult or young man/woman…straight or gay be more trustworthy? Maybe trustworthy is the wrong word but why create the setting or allow it take place unless or until all scenarios have been sincerely talked about? This is new ground especially for the straight community who are working out how to welcome the assimilation. There are many who just want society to change and accept, no questions asked. From my POV this is what the gay community wants and even straight activists. There are many who are willing to work at it and indeed realize that acceptance is the right thing to do but who have concerns that need to be addressed. This is where I stand for now. There are also those who want a “don’t ask don’t tell” environment. I can understand why this is not acceptable, and then there are many who are over the top bigots. Some straights are in the dark, some stand firm in their beliefs, some just have concerns but all are generally put into the last group. Before you scoff at what I say I’ll let you know I have several personal experiences and have even dropped out of conversations due to bashing. Why do you want to demonize me for pointing these types of concerns out? Answers and contemplation could be part of the solution. Again I’ll say the straight community are not the only ones who need to strive to understand some things they previously did not understand.

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