A Suicide

[Anonymous]

Depression is horrible, and the stats about its prevalence are staggering. Anything we can do to de-stigmatize it and proper ways to try to deal with it (including medication) is worth it.

[Anonymous]

Robin Williams’ death hit me pretty hard. I have been suicidal before. I know that feeling of worthlessness and believing the world would be better off without you. I am fortunate to have some pretty good tools to cope. My heart hurts for Robin and his family. May God’s grace give him peace, rest, and maybe a glimpse of how much he meant to the world.

[Anonymous]

Stats are useful in one sense, they prove just how common the phenomenon is. Plenty of suicide attempts are also never reported.

[Anonymous]

For those interested, you might check out this website: http://www.kevinhinesstory.com/

I heard Kevin speak and his experience with mental illness was tragic, compelling and ultimately triumphant in many ways. He made it clear to the audience that he continues to struggle with his mental health problems.

Also very interesting is this: http://www.ted.com/talks/kevin_briggs_the_bridge_between_suicide_and_life. I heard him speak at the same event. He provided some interesting insights into what people who contemplate suicide are going through.

[Anonymous]

This is a subject that has been on my mind much lately. At the beginning of the year my 18 year old daughter had been struggling with attempts on her life (she tried 4 times) and spent some time in the psyche ward because of it. Then last month my cousin who was her same age suddenly did. It hit really hard. Good active mormon girl on scholarship- accomplished and talented with a blank slate life ahead of her.

I had always been rather “pro-suicide” for a Mormon. By that i do NOT mean that anyone should commit suicide. However, I have always felt that they shouldn’t have been judged. Also as a parent, I could not possibly imagine that a father god would ever say to a child who had been in so much pain that they screwed up their eternity and could not enter into his celestial glory. Yet, even if not said by the prophet himself, I was raised in the church where it was definitely taught that suicide=murder and murder is the one sin that can never be forgiven. This is one of the issues that bothered me much but that I had enough faith to put on the back burner and ignore.

So now that it came to light in my personal life, I decided I wanted to look up exactly what the church was officially saying these days and I found the same article nibbler referenced:

nibbler wrote:

Edited.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/10/suicide-some-things-we-know-and-some-we-do-not?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/10/suicide-some-things-we-know-and-some-we-do-not?lang=eng

.

I read and re-read. I liked that the church was being much less judgmental than they had been in the past. But wait– so as I re-read this I am thinking about this statement:

[quote}Suicide consists in the voluntary and intentional taking of one’s own life, particularly where the person involved is accountable and has a sound mind. … Persons subject to great stresses may lose control of themselves and become mentally clouded to the point that they are no longer accountable for their acts. Such are not to be condemned for taking their own lives.”[/quote]

So wait- what you are saying is that if you are out of your mind then maybe you won’t be condemned, but if you are in your right mind and commit suicide then you will. Then it’s a sin. Wait- what? Doesn’t there very fact that the person committed suicide mean that THEY ARE NOT IN THEIR RIGHT MIND? Even if not “insane” they are out of their mind with pain to the point that they are thinking suicide is the best alternative. Certainly no one who is not in extreme pain or confusion could even think of ending their lives. To me the very statement is sounding more ludicrous the more I think about it. I can only think of one exception- maybe. There are those who seem to be so evil that they go out and commit mass murder like shooting up a school and then turn the gun on themselves. Or the terrorists who do suicide bombings. Even them though I have to wonder if there was some degree of mental illness involved. Really I am pretty sure they are just evil but I don’t know everything, so that is a riddle I am content to leave with God.

But the more and more I thought about this article, the more I thought it was a statement of plausibly deniability on the church’s part and a denial tactic used to make use doubt ourselves because there was a change, and the church can’t admit wrong. “We were right before and we are right now, it’s just you misunderstood us. (see my post at http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5841&start=10) Sigh I don’t want to think this is just me being cynical. Is it?

[Anonymous]

Frankly, RDS, you are overthinking the statement. The Church can’t say it’s fine and dandy to take a life, even one’s own life, but it can and does say that suicide is not murder and can be caused by temporary or permanent impaired accountability. Also, I really like the fact that the statement doesn’t limit that only to diagnosed mental disabilities.

Finally, fwiw, I’ve never heard in my lifetime in the Church (and raised in a highly conservative, orthodox area) that suicide is murder – and I am not a youngster.

[Anonymous]

You are right, It may be that I am over thinking things. That’s why I am so glad to be able to come here and get feedback from all of you and am endlessly impressed about the great brains here and the honest feedback I get. I am glad it’s a safe place that I don’t have to worry I will just be told to repent from my heretical thoughts.

However, it was one of those things that may not have been actually said by the prophet and was not actually doctrine, but as a military brat I was raised in several different sub cultures in mormonism and it was definitely perpetuated anyway. And there is this from that article:

“President George Q. Cannon of the First Presidency made a clear statement about the seriousness of suicide when he said: ‘Man did not create himself. He did not furnish his spirit with a human dwelling place. It is God who created man, both body and spirit. Man has no right, therefore, to destroy that which he had no agency in creating. They who do so are guilty of murder, self-murder it is true; but they are no more justified in killing themselves than they are in killing others.’ “

And I agree totally- the church cannot ever say suicide is OK. I wouldn’t ever tell anyone to do it, ever. But I don’t think it’s right to judge those who have or think in any way that they will be horribly punished. IMO they were probably punished to such an extent here that they likely already paid for the sin before they even did it. IDK. I guess I just err on the side of non judgement and empathy. Glad that the church is starting to take the same tone but as I said I am a little burnt on the “that’s not what I said- that’s not what I meant. What you took to be real wasn’t real because you misunderstood me.” Live with a BPD a few years and see how long before you cringe every time you hear those words! And yes, maybe I am cynical- trying to explore that one still.

[Anonymous]

It seems that there has been an increase in the number of suicides lately.

I know personally at least (3) people in the last 4 months who have made successful attempts at suicide.

It has been devastating for the families they’ve left behind.

I can’t imagine being in that situation where you would contemplate doing that.

That is why I believe it is mental break down & we are not in a position to judge.

What can you say to a surviving family member that would bring comfort?

Maybe just silence & a hug. Or a sympathetic ear.

[Anonymous]

I agree and simply will point out how old that quote is. On-going revelation is an important concept, even when it isn’t viewed the way orthodoxy would define it.

Previous people did the best they could with their own understanding, just as we do now. Many aspects of our vision through dark glasses have improved, but we still see darkly in many ways. I try to remember that when viewing others, past and present – and when I am prone to judge myself.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I agree and simply will point out how old that quote is. On-going revelation is an important concept, even when it isn’t viewed the way orthodoxy would define it.

Previous people did the best they could with their own understanding, just as we do now. Many aspects of our vision through dark glasses have improved, but we still see darkly in many ways. I try to remember that when viewing others, past and present – and when I am prone to judge myself.

Yes you are right. And I am likely to be a little sensitive and have a knee jerk reaction from the circumstance I am in.

[Anonymous]

Speaking of suicide, after the loss of my cousin my grandpa sent this and I found it comforting. I thought the woman who wrote it had some good points and I found it comforting:

http://eatthinkbemerry.com/2014/06/a-perspective-on-suicide/

I especially liked how she said:

“My family was watching a documentary on the 9/11 terrorist attacks and for the first time, I saw footage of someone jumping from the window of one of the twin towers. All at once, I understood what Jay’s bishop had meant. The person was not jumping from the building to die, but rather to escape the intense and consuming flames. Nobody would accuse that person of being selfish or of giving up on life.”

[Anonymous]

At risk of going sideways on this topic, do any of you have links to talks, especially funeral talks for people committing suicide? Im going to speak at a ward members funeral who killed herself and im looking for input. I have searched on this forum but didnt have much luck using the search feature. I did find a couple of helpful talks on LDS.org, including the one linked by nibbler. Messages of hope, grace, mercy come to mind.

Very sad, diificult for those left behind, but this sister was obviously struggling with more than we knew. Zero judgement from anyone as far as I can tell, only love and support for the family.

[Anonymous]

I edited down my original post to this thread, I wish I remember some of the stuff I had said. Anyway:

George Q. Cannon wrote:

Man did not create himself. He did not furnish his spirit with a human dwelling place. It is God who created man, both body and spirit. Man has no right, therefore, to destroy that which he had no agency in creating. They who do so are guilty of murder, self-murder it is true; but they are no more justified in killing themselves than they are in killing others.

I’ve heard very similar things from many (if not most) religious denominations. I’ve even heard it taken one step further, that suicide guarantees you a spot in hell. Here’s the thing… people say this sort of thing as a tactic to instill obedience through fear. They really, really, really, really don’t want someone to commit suicide so they come up with these sorts of ideas to scare people off even entertaining the thought of suicide. They might not even know that’s the real reason behind those sorts of teachings but that’s how I see it, boiling down to a last ditch effort to possibly scaring people off committing suicide.

Here’s the thing. People commit suicide. Those teachings meant to scare a person away from suicide are still lingering out there and now only serve to destroy a family’s hope. The teaching intended to scare people away from suicide now convinces loved ones that their family member committed murder, and in so doing are guaranteed a spot in hell.

I think people are finally starting to come around in seeing some of the bitter fruits behind using that fear tactic. This is why fear can never work to motivate people to obey. I’ve had suicides (plural) in my family and I’ve been in situations where I tried to comfort a family member that had deep seated beliefs in equating suicide with a one way ticket to hell. These beliefs certainly didn’t come from the LDS church, the teachings have been around for a long, long time.

Also, those types of phrases and teachings really eat at the person that contemplates suicide. If they have those beliefs and they still make an attempt at their life? They’ve already been to hell, I promise you that.

Suicide is complicated, like everything. I really do believe that some people have a genetic predisposition towards being suicidal. Look at Ernest Hemingway’s family. Look at mine, I even struggled with depression. I believe church0333 has had firsthand experience with family suicides as well.

I hate to draw attention to this but one thing I’ve learned in the last decade or so (I was naïve), and Robin Williams’ suicide just underscores this… people that struggle with depression are never safe. I had a preconceived notion that suicide, more often than not, claims the young. That if I could somehow survive my youth, if I can help my children survive their youth, if other family members are now older, that perhaps we’ll all finally be free of this. Perhaps we’ve won. No. No. No. People that struggle with depression and suicidal thoughts are never safe. The battle is never over.

I ran across a post from church0333 and although I don’t fully understand my feelings towards suicide I can say that it certainly is “another means of causing death and death will come to us all.”

I hope I’m brave enough to leave this post alone this time. Unfortunately this touches on a raw nerve with me.

[Anonymous]

Amen nibbler. You said exactly what I was thinking and feeling but could not articulate. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

George Q. Cannon wrote:

Man did not create himself. He did not furnish his spirit with a human dwelling place. It is God who created man, both body and spirit. Man has no right, therefore, to destroy that which he had no agency in creating. They who do so are guilty of murder, self-murder it is true; but they are no more justified in killing themselves than they are in killing others.

Using the same logic, shouldn’t the Church be against all wars?

Shouldn’t the Church be against capital punishment?

[Author]

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