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Inquiring Mind wrote about this basic concept in the other current temple-related post, but I want to record it distinctly in its own thread, so others can find it more easily. Adam and Eve lived in a Garden of innocence – lacking the knowledge to experience both opposition and growth. Immediately upon having their “eyes opened”, they found themselves in a new world (called “the lone and dreary world”), where they would have to work, struggle, feel pain, choose what to believe from among competing ideas, etc. One choice they did NOT have was to return to the blissful ignorance of their former condition.
The most important point?
Going from blissful ignorance to pain and turmoil was the right choice. Their challenge was to find peace in their new world – and to change it from a “lone and dreary” existence to a “collective and beautified” one.
It’s hard to find one’s self “kicked out” of innocence into a lone and dreary situation, but it’s impossible to go back to that former innocence – and it would not be a good thing if it was possible. The only direction that is productive is forward toward God, in a new state with open eyes.
My garden of innocence was that three-year-period right after I was baptized in 1992. It’s painfully hilarious to remember how literally I took everything and how obedient I tried to be. I even wrote my favorite BOM verses on aluminum foil just for fun. Even anti-Mormon books had no effect on me. I read Deborah Laake’s book “Secret Ceremonies” and innocently asked an old man in the Temple about the old endowment ceremony. To my surprise, he gave me a candid answer, then invited me to go ask the temple president, to which I replied “no, that’s okay.” The unraveling started when I got to be a veil worker at the Atlanta Temple, and they explained that if anyone forgot a certain bit of information, it’s the same for everyone who went through on that day. That was an “oh …” moment. I had it committed to memory. After that I realized that even the Church doesn’t take these things literally.
Today I still consider myself as having a testimony of the Church. I occasionally get up in F&TM and speak. I really do believe in the Church. My testimony today is based on spiritual experiences, but without having to make everything fit. If it doesn’t fit, I let it go. And I wouldn’t want to go back to my 1994 belief system for anything in the world.
Great parallel for many of us here, Curtis. I had said here on the forums recently how I was happier before my faith crisis, I suppose the old saying “ignorance is bliss” applies. I wasn’t totally ignorant, I was more like what Convert1992 describes – I knew but didn’t care because I held the beliefs to be unshakable. Something really had to reach my core beliefs for me to make a change, you’re right, I can’t go back even if I wanted to. This is a very timely post for me to read, Curtis. This thought hasn’t EVER occurred to me. It’s like an epiphany. They didn’t have the choice to go back. I’ve thought so many hundreds of times over the years since my FC that I wish I could go back to the moment before it happened, but of course, I don’t have that choice. I think that recently, instead of trying to improve my “lone and dreary world” and move forward, I’ve been sitting around waiting for that to either happen on it’s own or for someone else to do it for me. I’ve been going to church all surly and thinking “what’s in it for me?” Starting today, I’m going to try to worry much less about what it all means and just start putting my arm around someone’s shoulder and saying, “how can I help?” That’s what I used to do and it made me happy, and hopefully helped a few others along the way.
Thank you Curtis. So insightful.
I think it is a good thing to take from the movie. I took it that way. For years I tried to force things to fit. Naturally many never really will, some will. The ones that fit don’t really require much effort, as you would expect. Much like playing http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection_(board_game)http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection_(board_game)” class=”bbcode_url”> Learning to let go and just fit what fits and let go of the things that don’t is good in and out of the church and even in work.
The only problem that I can’t ignore in the movie is just how stupid and unthinking for themselves Adam and Eve are. Totally dependent. Not a good lesson to take from a father/mother authority figure. Outside of that there are a few things we can learn including being patient with one another as we learn but that does not mean subjecting ourselves to pain and others that seek to force a situation even with good intent as with lucifer and Adam and Eve in the movie.
The Hobbit is also a great story for this. As when bilbo who just wants to live a comfortable non adventurous quite life, notices that after the dwarves leave, the house doesn’t feel the same. Something seems empty now where it didn’t before. The experiences changed him and he realized how empty his house and life felt now.
Gandolf conceals Bilbo that if he lives through it he will not be the same. That isn’t bad, that’s just what experiences in life do. Once we have eye opening experiences in any part of life(not just and including religion and the church) we are not the same and can’t pretend the experiences never happened.
Anyone traveling abroad to India or other places for the first time from America can attest to this. Simply visiting another nation very different then your own can open your eyes forever and make you feel uncomfortable to think in wats that seemed so natural before. And make you feel comfortable in ways that felt so scared or unnatural before.
Experiences are to be learned from, they enable us to share experiences with others, to teach and share with others as we each learn in our own time and in own way. Forcing experiences and knowledge is a dangerous and painful experience. We came through most of our experiences in our own time and place. Many will have experiences in tiger own time and place.
Others will have different ones. It’s not up to use to choose the force the experiences or time or place for them. I do think it’s up to us to just be there for those that do and share and teach or experiences with those that have had theirs. We can be there for them. As in other parts of life.
I remember very clearly how I felt walking by myself through life without anyone to listen or understand or be there for you through painful and life changing experiences. I’ve experienced that most of my life. Be patient and be ready for each other should the need arise. The paths may be different for different people.
Another lesson in the movie, learning not to be interdependent but not codependent on others including but not limited to the church or god. After all, isn’t that the greatest blessing a father /mother hopes to achieve with his child, growing naturally, maturely , independently with happiness. The hard part is letting them learn in their own time and way. It’s just frustrating sometimes, but part if the process.
People in my life tried to control the entire process the entire time, so I know how it feels to be forced to experience. It’s not something I would wish in anyone. We shouldn’t try to force anyone through our experiences either. I really hate forces experiences. In any part of the spectrum. We can be better then that. Even though we may wish to “go back” to how it was before, trying to will just lead to more pain. Excepting the experiences and moving on with what we have learned from them without forcing others but just being there when they have their own. Sorry for rant/babble.
Quote:The only problem that I can’t ignore in the movie is just how stupid and unthinking for themselves Adam and Eve are.
F_C, in that regard, I really like the newest temple movie. My wife and I saw it for the first time last week, and Adam and Ever are portrayed as more thoughtful than in the past movies. Eve, especially, comes across as MUCH more involved and thoughtful (for example, agonizing over whether or not to eat the fruit) – and, although she doesn’t have any more spoken lines, she is MUCH more of a front-and-center, important character in the newest depiction.
Seriously, I think you would love the change, even while hoping for more changes down the road.
Curtis wrote:Quote:The only problem that I can’t ignore in the movie is just how stupid and unthinking for themselves Adam and Eve are.
F_C, in that regard, I really like the newest temple movie. My wife and I saw it for the first time last week, and Adam and Ever are portrayed as more thoughtful than in the past movies. Eve, especially, comes across as MUCH more involved and thoughtful (for example, agonizing over whether or not to eat the fruit) – and, although she doesn’t have any more spoken lines, she is MUCH more of a front-and-center, important character in the newest depiction.
Seriously, I think you would love the change, even while hoping for more changes down the road.
Thanks Ray. I am told that there are 3 versions playing at the moment. The old one much less frequently. They stand there just waiting to be told what do…errr. Militaries generals dream. Not an example..errr
I hope to see this new one, thanks for the heads up. Look forward to it.
:thumbup: When I divorced myself from the literal interpretations of the scriptures I often returned to the story of the fall to gain insight into my FC. Curtis wrote:It’s hard to find one’s self “kicked out” of innocence into a lone and dreary situation, but it’s impossible to go back to that former innocence – and it would not be a good thing if it was possible. The only direction that is productive is forward toward God, in a new state with open eyes.
Going back
wouldbe returning to the presence of god but as you say, it is impossible. The only healthy way is forward… which also seems to lead towards god? It seems that all roads point towards god. Curtis wrote:Inquiring Mind wrote about this basic concept in the other current temple-related post, but I want to record it distinctly in its own thread, so others can find it more easily.
Adam and Eve lived in a Garden of innocence – lacking the knowledge to experience both opposition and growth. Immediately upon having their “eyes opened”, they found themselves in a new world (called “the lone and dreary world”), where they would have to work, struggle, feel pain, choose what to believe from among competing ideas, etc. One choice they did NOT have was to return to the blissful ignorance of their former condition.
The most important point?
Going from blissful ignorance to pain and turmoil was the right choice. Their challenge was to find peace in their new world – and to change it from a “lone and dreary” existence to a “collective and beautified” one.
It’s hard to find one’s self “kicked out” of innocence into a lone and dreary situation, but it’s impossible to go back to that former innocence – and it would not be a good thing if it was possible. The only direction that is productive is forward toward God, in a new state with open eyes.
Great thoughts Curtis. Really helpful today. I needed this today. “The challenge was to find peace in their new world”… yep.
I think of the stories of Jesus and how he “overcame the world”, or the Millennium, where we will have peace for 1,000 years. I no longer believe any of these things in the literal sense, but feel that it is possible to find Zion in our hearts and enjoy the Millennium in our hearts today. I am not naive to believe that there is a “destination” with no pain, but one of total acceptance of what IS, regardless of the situation.
opentofreedom wrote:I am not naive to believe that there is a “destination” with no pain, but one of total acceptance of what IS, regardless of the situation.
I think this is also what I think about it. The choice to be safe with no pain would not be the best choice for progression. I think when we have other goals, than despite pain, we can find more joy in achieving those even if we have to endure pain to get them. There is no other way to get more joy.After a faith crisis…there is a way to get more faith, despite pain and disillusionment. It can lead to a progression.
Anyone else notice that the bretheren are asked to close their eyes when Adam falls into a deep sleep and stand when he awakens, but are never asked to open their eyes? Unknown wrote:Anyone else notice that the bretheren are asked to close their eyes when Adam falls into a deep sleep and stand when he awakens, but are never asked to open their eyes?
Hahaha, yeah, funny story. My son the first time he went through didn’t know to open his eyes, and no one noticed FOR a few minutes to tell him!
😆 Curtis wrote:Going from blissful ignorance to pain and turmoil was the right choice.
Like.There’s a debate among leaders of my ward about why the church is publishing all the recent essays. The consensus – among my ward leaders – seems to be that the essays are sharing difficult truths but are damaging to many people’s testimonies and that we shouldn’t be reading them. I purposefully steer clear of these conversations, but it’s interesting to me that some people don’t trust the church when it comes to sharing difficult truths.
Unknown, I think the idea of “awake” includes opening one’s eyes – but I like the story of DarkJedi’s son. It’s a good reminder that we often say things that seem simple to us but can be complicated for the person with whom we are communicating – and vice-versa. Some things that seem complicated to us seem simple to others.
Roadrunner wrote:Curtis wrote:Going from blissful ignorance to pain and turmoil was the right choice.
Like.There’s a debate among leaders of my ward about why the church is publishing all the recent essays. The consensus – among my ward leaders – seems to be that the essays are sharing difficult truths but are damaging to many people’s testimonies and that we shouldn’t be reading them. I purposefully steer clear of these conversations, but it’s interesting to me that some people don’t trust the church when it comes to sharing difficult truths.
As a side note I told my stake president recently that faith transitions would become more prevalent and that local church leaders would need to figure out how to deal when them other than blaming them on serious sins. He agreed but I don’t think he knows how to address a faith transition. THAT might be an interesting essay or general conference talk.
That is interesting to note. My stake is having a Fair presentation next weekend and I wonder what the leaders think of this. I also worry that people are going to be hurt and “forced out of the garden” before they are ready. But at the same time I applaud the essays from the church. The past 20 years of calculated lesson plans has been painfully damaging IMO. It is all very interesting to observe.
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