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Elder Oaks wrote an article in the up-coming October Ensign called Recovering from the Trap of Pornography that includes many elements discussed in this thread. http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-october-2015/2015-10-00-ensign-eng.pdf ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-october-2015/2015-10-00-ensign-eng.pdf As a teaser, here are a few quotes that follow discussion points made in this thread:
Quote:Levels of Involvement
To help us deal with this growing evil, I wish to identify several different levels of involvement with pornography and to suggest ways we should respond to each of them.
In earlier times and circumstances, our counsel about pornography focused principally on helping individuals to avoid initial exposure or to recover from addiction. While those efforts are still important, past experience and current circumstances have shown the need for counsel addressed to levels of pornography use between the polar extremes of avoidance and addiction. It is helpful to focus on four different levels of involvement with pornography: (1) inadvertent exposure, (2) occasional use, (3) intensive use, and (4) compulsive use (addiction).
Quote:Once we recognize these different levels, we also recognize that not everyone who uses pornography willfully is addicted to it. In fact, most young men and young women who struggle with pornography are not addicted. That is a very important distinction to make—not just for the parents, spouses, and leaders who desire to help but also for those who struggle with this problem. Here is why.
Quote:When the time for marriage comes, I encourage young women and young men to be careful to select a partner to be their companion through eternity who is clean and pure before the Lord and worthy to enter the temple.
Individuals who fully repent from pornography are worthy of these blessings. It’s more nuanced than the traditional dialog about pornography. Of course there are a few questionable bits here and there but when it comes to a talk about porn from an apostle this is as good as it’s likely to get.
Quote:Once we recognize these different levels, we also recognize that not everyone who uses pornography willfully is addicted to it. In fact, most young men and young women who struggle with pornography are not addicted. That is a very important distinction to make—not just for the parents, spouses, and leaders who desire to help but also for those who struggle with this problem.
This is wisdom and shows a path to warn against the real problems and extremes that are real problems, while knowing not everyone who sips wine is a drunk. Different levels introduce more thoughts like gray areas instead of black and white teaching. That is something that might help a lot of people and relationships when a church authority recognizes this.
I see it positive because it can really help define addiction, which is a serious problem. Sometimes we learn what addiction is, by defining what it is not.
Will be interesting to look at Oaks remarks with regards to the connection details of “addiction” as in the TED talk in the other thread. I wonder if the “connection” (or lack thereof) aspects of the problem are addressed… Yeah! another small step forward. We just don’t need to be so fear-mongering. Oaks’ words help strike a reasonable position. Some things matter, let’s clarify what does and not drive fear by broad-brush strokes of things that cause couple to fear about if they should question things in order to be faithful. With today’s devices and access…I don’t know how anyone isn’t exposed to it in some way. My daughter struggled with it, more than my son. My approach to both of them was the same…let’s not over react or draw more self-hatred…the guilty feeling is telling you it is not good…so…let’s work on self-control and avoid it, while realizing probably all your friends have been exposed to it too.
It doesn’t need to be embraced to say there are different levels or dangers of it. It can be agreed it is bad, at all levels. But let’s keep it in perspective.
My daughter is super strict and hard core mormon. I try to tell her it is a church of love, not a church of fear. As she focuses on the good things, the bad things fall behind of no consequence. Nobody is perfect, but where you’re going is more important than what problems you have now.
I think addictions are real and become the road blocks keeping some from going where they want, and need real help from others. But some people just need to be loved and told that we believe in them that they can do this themselves. The sooner they believe that, the sooner they develop strength to avoid the places that make them feel bad.
Elder Oaks message is wise. It isn’t often church leaders talk sensibly about a subject like sex or porn because they usually paint it horribly and move on as quickly as possible.
I agree with those who like this more moderate tone from an apostle – especially considering it’s Elder Oaks. Call me crazy, but this is not the only issue I have seen Oaks move toward a more moderate position on. I don’t have time to give length examples, but his rhetoric about Proposition 8 and gay marriage moderated greatly after it became apparent to him that it was a losing battle. He’s still clearly opposed, but he also talked a great deal about tolerance and love after that. He is not the hardliner he once was. nibbler wrote:Elder Oaks wrote an article in the up-coming October Ensign called Recovering from the Trap of Pornography that includes many elements discussed in this thread. As a teaser, here are a few quotes that follow discussion points made in this thread…It’s more nuanced than the traditional dialog about pornography.
Of course there are a few questionable bits here and there but when it comes to a talk about porn from an apostle this is as good as it’s likely to get.I’m glad that he said something to at least try to discourage the widespread misuse of the “addict” label in the Church if only for the sake of accepting reality to some extent instead of perpetuating myths. However, I doubt this article will make much of a difference overall even for those that read it because the underlying message is still the same hard-line position it has always been in recent decades, namely that intentionally viewing pornography is supposedly always an unacceptable sin and everyone that continues to view it no matter how infrequently needs to repent or else they are unworthy. For example, look at the following comments from the article.
Quote:Occasional Use.This use of pornography may be occasional or even frequent, but
it is always intentional, and that is its evil.Pornography stirs and magnifies powerful sexual feelings. The Creator gave us these feelings for His wise purposes, but He also gave commandments that limited their expression to a man and a woman who are married. Pornography debases appropriate sexual expression and encourages the expression of sexual feelings outside the boundaries of marriage. Immoral sexual behavior of any kind or degree produces feelings of shame, which, over time, can be entrenched within an individual.…
When the time for marriage comes, I encourage young women and young men to be careful to select a partner to be their companion through eternity who is clean and pure before the Lord and worthy to enter the temple.First of all, is it really “immoral” behavior that causes the shame some people feel about porn, masturbation, etc. or is it the Church itself teaching them that this is a sin and something they should be ashamed of? To me it looks like many non-Mormons and less faithful Church members actually don’t really feel ashamed of this that much if at all to begin with. Now as far as the idea that everyone needs to permanently repent of viewing porn to be worthy I guess in theory this hard-line expectation would work fairly well for the Church and many LDS women that feel upset because of their husband’s porn habits if only all active LDS men would just be a good boy and do what they are told. However, the problem with this idea is that I doubt that this is ever going to happen in many if not the majority of cases in real life nowadays.
In fact, if Church leaders want to make the Church into even more of a fringe organization mostly geared around hardcore zealots and make it even more irrelevant worldwide than it already is then I think one of the best possible ways to accomplish a major purge and scale down their operation would be to add a specific question to directly ask men when the last time they viewed porn was in worthiness interviews before they can go on missions, get married in the temple, etc. and if the answer is within the last year then simply tell them to wait a year on probation to prove they have properly “repented.” I’m not joking, there are reportedly already nearly 2 active LDS women for every 1 active LDS man in the Church even with as many as 70% or more of the active LDS men still viewing porn/nudity occasionally and my guess is that the more they emphasize and push the idea that this makes these men “unworthy” the more it will end up backfiring by driving many men to drop out of the Church altogether, encouraging harsh and judgmental reactions by LDS women sometimes to the point of divorce, etc.
I agree DA. Elder Oaks’ message was a mixed bag for me. I appreciate that he distanced himself from the idea that all porn users are addicts. Frankly, I think the science on this is pretty clear and it was only a matter of time before this message started changing. I much more appreciate that he states that individuals that have fully repented of pornography are considered “clean and pure before the Lord and worthy to enter the temple.” This statement is very helpful. If we raise our young people to seek for marriage partners that have never intentionally looked at porn – then we have a no win situation for those of our young people that have looked at porn.
We have a family member that was caught going to strip clubs decades ago (b4 I was born). He broke his young wife’s heart. He has since lived an admirable life and even served as bishop but the family has never really forgotten. Recently I was part of a conversation where it was expressed that some family members did not feel comfortable with this family member at the family water park gathering because of all the young girls of the family being in bathing suits. I tried to point out that it is unfair to this individual to assume that because of his poor choices so long ago that he would be lusting after the young women of the extended family during a completely wholesome family activity.
Because I believe that some of Elder Oaks’ statements directly counter this kind of “one and done” / if you have looked at porn you are forever altered/tainted thinking – I am choosing to celebrate those helpful statements and ignore the parts that I might otherwise disagree with.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:…I think one of the best possible ways to accomplish a major purge and scale down their operation would be to add a specific question to directly ask men when the last time they viewed porn was in worthiness interviews before they can go on missions, get married in the temple, etc. and if the answer is within the last year then simply tell them to wait a year on probation to prove they have properly “repented.”
My prior stake had 2 additional interview questions for men on TR interviews: 1) when was the last time you looked at porn; 2) when was the last time you masturbated.
There was a bishop as well, that required a minimum 3 month waiting period of informal probation before you could do things like take sacrament, or ordinance work. So, we are moving in this direction. This is becoming a “no tolerance” position of the church,..at least at this local level.
I make no opinion remarks on this other than it is an interesting trend that has sprung up in certain areas locally.
I have lived all over the country. No stake in which I have lived had those added questions. It absolutely is not policy, and it absolutely is not a trend. It is not where we are headed as a church. It certainly is not becoming policy, even at the local level. With leadership roulette, I am sure it is happening in some places, but it is not the direction in which we are going – especially with the softening language in Elder Oaks’ talk. Old-Timer wrote:I have lived all over the country. No stake in which I have lived had those added questions. It absolutely is not policy, and it absolutely is not a trend. It is not where we are headed as a church. It certainly is not becoming policy, even at the local level. With leadership roulette, I am sure it is happening in some places, but it is not the direction in which we are going – especially with the softening language in Elder Oaks’ talk.
I know of 3 stakes that do that.
Sorry Ray, my experience is different.
Whether this is a trend or not, I can’t say clearly. But, it looks like certain areas are moving that way.
PS. I sat there in an interview with the first stake I mentioned, and they asked me those questions to my face. It was the 1st counselor, and he said this was a decision the SP has authorized. I know the practice continued to the next SP because a friend of mine got in a big fight with the interviewer over these very questions during the last time he went. My father also mentioned this to me.
So, considering it is a practice that has taken root in a few stakes doesn’t make it a trend,..but it is happening in places.
I understand, Rob – but they are not doing it by direction from the church leadership. Fwiw, extremism on the orthodoxy end is every bit as destructive as on the heterodoxy end – and the self-righteous quotient tends to be higher.
Old-Timer wrote:I understand, Rob – but they are not doing it by direction from the church leadership.
Fwiw, extremism on the orthodoxy end is every bit as destructive as on the heterodoxy end – and the self-righteous quotient tends to be higher.
Understood.
This taking it beyond the mark does damage IMHO. I think it is sad when it happens.
I have never been asked these questions. I personally feel that masturbation within a marriage is something that is between the husband and the wife – especially in cases where distance or other factors make more traditional forms of intimacy impractical. If I was asked – “1) when was the last time you looked at porn; 2) when was the last time you masturbated.” I would respond with “I don’t quite know. I didn’t exactly mark my calendar. What is it that you are trying to get at?”
DevilsAdvocate wrote:
In fact, if Church leaders want to make the Church into even more of a fringe organization mostly geared around hardcore zealots and make it even more irrelevant worldwide than it already is then I think one of the best possible ways to accomplish a major purge and scale down their operation would be to add a specific question to directly ask men when the last time they viewed porn was in worthiness interviews before they can go on missions, get married in the temple, etc. and if the answer is within the last yearthen simply tell them to wait a year on probation to prove they have properly “repented.”I’ve re-written this post several times, turning it down in sarcasm and trying to make a point that will be informative, yet more balanced from a perspective that is unique in some ways to me.
When I read your post DA, I chuckled. In my situation, I’ve been told to live a perfect life in this area for a minimum of a year or I will have to restart my clock from the beginning, re-baptism placed on indefinite hold. The idea of going 11 months, possibly having a slip in the middle of the night (for example) and restarting the clock is disturbing. I could have 364 days of perfect living, a day where in a half sleep I perhaps act out (being single sometimes those feelings happen in me,…sucks to be human I guess), and then have to discount those days and start over, is a recipe for discouragement and leaving forever. But, I’ve been told what the standards are. I know what the requirements are. And, I’ve been offered no help at all other than to read my scriptures, say my prayers, attend my meetings (where I am to remain utterly silent–and disconnected and alone), etc.
This focus on perfection is disturbing to me. I’m not perfect–I already had that made VERY VERY clear to me. But to get back in, I have to repent OF ALL MY SINS and live perfect. In the midst of this pathway, if I make a mistake I am reminded of the 1 day I Messed up and the 364 days that now don’t matter?
What a horrible and stupid plan. Lets focus on the mistake because that always helps people doesn’t it.
Repentance is crap. It doesn’t work when the policy is you are only as good as your last mistake is formalized in church discipline and made a way of life for repentance.
The LDS church is gunna have to go a LOT FURTHER than what they have done to achieve their mission of saving souls through Christ, because the message I get is UNTIL I live perfect for a year, I am an outcast.
What the church may not realized (and I don’t think they care frankly) is I have learned there is and often can be more help outside the church than in. Why would I want to ever come back? I’m the bleeding sheep bleating for help, and the help given comes from other churches, friends, and organizations. I think I will go there,…they love me.
Hunh…who would have thought that love would actually lure me away from Christ’s church?…perhaps it isn’t Christ’s church after all, since they don’t make mistakes, and if they do, they certainly don’t admit it (Oaks,…broadcast said this in so many words).
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