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Well explained Curt. The same couple I referenced earlier in the thread, he was wearing a tank top. Not a wife beater one. But I bet a billion dollars no one notices him. But her – whether anyone says anything or not, heads are exploding in judgement.
BYU Homecoming Queens of the 1960’s were in sleeveless dresses for their formal photos. Likewise parade float queens.
My testimony of Modesty has to do with people whose lifestyle is less than modest. Size of house, amount of toys, these things are pride all over the place. I can’t find many references to covered shoulders and knee’s in scripture. I sure do see a lot of pride warnings.
I turned this discussion into a post on W&T: https://wheatandtares.org/2018/08/07/a-testimony-of-modesty/ There was a spot on comment from Damascene that bears repeating.
Quote:Women are being taught that anything in words or deeds that draws attention to oneself is immodest. When those talks are analyzed for context, the lesson is that women are to limit their personal success. “Do not be financially successful in a noticeable wayif you are a woman” is the lesson being taught. Be a pretty, petite, covered-up woman who stays home is the lesson. . . The modesty lessons diminish options for women.
Nobody is telling men to be modest because it’s really about women being submissive, about women agreeing to be quiet, to bow their heads and submit, not to stand out. Even in the FTSOY, it ascribes motives to women who dress “immodestly,” claiming that they do this to gain attention (!). How the hell anyone can make such a judgment about women who wear a tank top in hot weather or shorts–it’s just mind-boggling!
I agree with mom3 that in scriptures modesty is really about wealth and pride, not covered shoulders or knees. I believe the woman who said “testimony of modesty” was really talking about just submitting to the patriarchy, finally just giving up and giving in to what others thought rather than trusting herself to make appropriate choices. That’s a hidden subversive side to modesty, that it’s really just a way to keep women in line.
I didn’t think this article was too bad in LDS Living: http://www.ldsliving.com/5-Ways-to-Help-Youth-See-Modesty-Differently/s/78052 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.ldsliving.com/5-Ways-to-Help-Youth-See-Modesty-Differently/s/78052 Quote:Note: This article focuses on modest dress, but the same principles and ideas can and should be applied to modesty in thoughts and actions.1. Teach youth to be sensitive and respectful of other people’s interpretations and practices of modesty.
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2. Refrain from blaming girls for “putting bad thoughts into boys’ heads.”
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3. Focus on the doctrine of modesty, not just the specifics.
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4. Teach youth to trust themselves and rely on the Holy Ghost when it comes to modesty.
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5. Teach youth that it is not vain, worldly, or a sin to dress nicely—you can dress nicely, stylishly, and modestly.
Nice ideas. It is all in the practice on how the ideas get implemented that matter.
I would add…for #4…we should trust the youth…guide them when they want help…but you know what…as they learn to trust themselves, they will make mistakes. They need to know what it feels like to wear a certain shirt or style in order for them to learn what they feel is right.
So…that means let them make mistakes and let them learn for themselves how the feel…not shame or let others shame them.
In other words, don’t make it such a big deal is someone shows up in a tank top.
LDS Living surprises me in many ways. They seem to be gently move the ship to a more moderate tone. I hope it helps. I wish the word “modesty” was changed. Like so many other words I think we have lost sight of it’s accurate intent. I don’t know what word to substitute for it but we need one.
I also wished as a church we spent more time on our hearts than our bodies. We had a convert bare her testimony after joining the church. It broke my heart. It was a confessional of all the things she didn’t/couldn’t do. First it was WoW. The woman liked coffee. Now she was allowed to adjust to diet Pepsi. Then there was the tattoo issue that she was “sorry for”. Next came the clothes she had to get.
I looked around the ward. Everyone was nodding and chuckling. I was cringing. My Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ wouldn’t have “made” her do all that. Sure it may have been an end wish, but not a starting out of the gate requirement.
I am all for comely appearance. I love that so many Southern friends still wear Sunday Best to church. I personally find our lazy summer clothing more appalling than some tan skin. But that’s my thing.
Didn’t God say, “He looketh on the heart.” ?
In reading the LDS Living article (which was a step in a positive direction) I came across this quote from Carol McKonkie. “Modesty is a principle that will help keep us safely on the covenant path as we progress to the presence of God. Modesty in dress and appearance and in thought and behavior will help prepare us to make and keep sacred temple covenants.”
The way she talks about modesty, it would seem to make sense to develop a “testimony of modesty”. Modesty guides us on the path to the presence of God. This led me to read more from the talk of Sister McKonkie.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/10/courage-to-choose-modesty?lang=eng 3 Blessings of Modesty: 1) Invite the HG. 2) Protect us from destructive influences of the world … Protection of chastity and virtue. 3) Modesty helps us stand as witnesses of God.
In reading this talk, I get the strong impression that “Modesty in dress and appearance and in thought and behavior” is code for not dressing, doing, or thinking in anyway sexual and that not reading or watching sexual material in media would be considered part of “Modesty … in thought.” It seems to me to be a “hedge” about the law of Chastity, a buffer to help get our youth to the temple as virgins.
Quote:Modesty is a defense against such evil influences and a protection of chastity and virtue. Listen to these words in For the Strength of Youth: “Before marriage, … do not do anything … that arouses sexual feelings.” Immodest appearance and behavior will often arouse sexual feelings and will break down barriers and invite increased temptation to break the law of chastity.
As an aside, I was particularly tickled by the way that Sister McKonkie misused Moroni 10:31.
Quote:Moroni records, “Awake, and arise from the dust, … yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; … that the covenants of the Eternal Father … may be fulfilled” (Moroni 10:31; emphasis added).
The beautiful garments are the robes of righteousness, worn by those who have kept their covenants. Are we preparing our children to put on these beautiful garments?
I believe that Sister McKonkie was proof-texting or looking for scriptures that would seem to support her arguments. A full quote of this verse shows that the ‘daughter of Zion” is Jerusalem and/or Israel. The covenants mentioned here are in the context of the coming forth of the BoM and the eventual Millennial reign. It is decidedly not about modesty or temple covenants.
Quote:31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.
The Moroni quote itself ties back to Isaiah 52 and reading that chapter is also helpful for context.
Quote:Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down (NIV adds enthroned), O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
God keeps his promises and redeems his people from bondage to glory! Halleluiah!
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