A Time for Change

[Anonymous]

Introduction – A Time for Change

My story could have easily been told here a couple years ago. However, I waited for whatever reason. So I have both the dark story and one that emerges with some resolution. However, I’m sure the journey will continue to evolve, especially if faith is a requirement of our existence, the kind where God never really becomes tangible. And if it does become tangible again, thinking I’ve figure out life and God, I’m sure I will be knocked down once again. Instead, I now rest my mind of a weary search and let God be.

I found StayLDS a few years ago while I was entering stage four of Fowler’s faith development. I was seeking answers, found none at the time, but found wonderful support reading the many stories and replies.

I’ve observed, and it may be human nature, that once many find some kind of faith resolution, there is less need to stay connected with these types of support groups and move on with their lives, whether it is to leave the church, some partial activity or to come back with even greater faith and spirituality.

However, it takes a special person after coming to their own faith resolution to stay behind and help support those that come to a faith crisis for the first time in their life. For that reason, I send my gratitude and thanks for those with the compassion, understand and willingness to help the hundreds if not thousands more that will pass through this veil to give support to those in their darkest hours. They have a choice, but chose to stay and help. My heartfelt thanks extend to the leadership, staff and especially the founder at StayLDS.Com for caring.

I came to my faith crisis a little late in life, perhaps because I was just simply too busy being at the bottom of the food chain raising a family, work and church callings. Most of you know the story.

I can relate to everything that has been shared here. The feelings of betrayal, embarrassment, hurt, anger, confusion, sleepless nights, fear, loneliness, a mind that will race with questions, wonder, answers that last a few minutes to a few days and then back to the drawing board, over and over and over. This feeling of despair began to affect me physically. It was exhausting and emotionally draining to the point I was dealing with a nervous breakdown. This went on for about four years.

How did it all start for me? One night several years ago, I was taking a shower after work; I was in the middle of scrubbing the shampoo in my hair in a steaming hot shower feeling on top of the world. Then out of nowhere, a whispering voice popped into my mind with the question, “What if the church is not true and what if there is no God.” I felt almost an electrical jolt of fear that went through my entire body that caused me to tremble. At that moment in the first time in my life, whether God, devil or thoughts from a mysterious mind, my belief and faith was going to be challenged or tested, whether or like it or not.

I now have a completely different perspective in life. To this day, I felt like I was robbed of my innocence. When I go to church and listen to discussions, I can see the innocence that prevails and wish I could be back into that world. It was a simple and safe place to be, one where you did not have to think and just accept things. However, I have now learned there is a difference between a childish faith and a child like faith.

To this day, I do not know how it happened or why. It came to me like a flash of light to the mind. I had never read, studied or researched church doctrine and history with the frame of mind that my beliefs may not be accurate. I was not looking for it, I didn’t want it and at the time I preferred that it had never happened.

However the cards of life had a different plan. While wrestling to put these thoughts out of my mind, I had the unexpected happen. Of my five children I had one that was a thinker, honest and pure in heart. Accuracy mattered to him growing up. Unbeknown to me, he had been studying for many months, reading authors like Richard Bushman, Joseph Campbell, and C.S. Lewis. And then one evening alone, he opened up to me with a few sincere well thought out questions about our beliefs. I knew when he opened up that this experience I had in the shower was just the beginning. I knew I was in for the ride of my life, especially when the questions were so insightful and well thought out. I could not ignore the whisperings of the mind.

Looking back, I can now understand why so many in the church leave. How can parents and leaders help others when our faith is at stage three and they are knocking at the stage four? Then even if they do survive their faith crisis and the harsh treatment from others, they are not sure if they can ever fit back into a very strict and judgmental environment.

So instead of schooling my son, turning him away, giving him my number three spiritual lecture on foolish questions, a thought came to my mind that I remembered from my missionary days, “Only if you are unafraid of truth, can you find it.” I instead embraced him with my love and willingness to walk the plank and begin a very scary journey into a desert without water. Looking back, the irony was that it actually became the first seed in my life to exercise real faith to see if there was a God and to challenge my own beliefs.

So the journey began a few years back and it has now almost found resolution from the dark. My son is now somewhat atheist and may be there for awhile. Only I know about his journey and current beliefs. Yet he is active in church and supports his family and keeps his beliefs in secret. I, on the other hand, found a little different resolution to my faith crisis. Only my spouse and son know about my journey and we hold them secret together.

Come to find out, my wife for 30 years came to the same conclusions in her youth, but stayed in secret rather than bring turmoil to others innocence. I was amazed at her ability to have kept it secret. She patiently waited for me and has been a tremendous support. We both now enjoy a different kind of spirituality, rather than choose to be angry at how life just “is.”

If God exists, I think to myself, he exists in what Stephen R. Covey once said, “Faith begins when it cannot be done.” God now exists in what I cannot explain, but feel in my thoughts. God seems to reside in the resolution of all my reason and mental conflicts about life. The journey has been a paradox. I cannot even being to explain what God is, but it now begins and ends with faith. Something I never had before.

I thought I was so smart and self assured before, but really was insecure holding onto tangibles that shored my faith. I suppose I unconsciously hung my previous faith hat on a coat rack of religious signs that explained God as a tangible man, the physical existence of gold plates, and individuals having meetings with God, Jesus, angels were simply the proof. I then saw my faith in a different light. Could I have been a sign seeker for my insecure faith?

I now have a greater love for my neighbor, those that are different, compassion upon other beliefs, and those that think differently. I am now slow to question as to what “is” in life. It just “is.” In my darkest hour however I felt anger towards church leaders. I now feel compassion for what they cannot see or what they may not hear.

I wanted so badly, so many times to give up in my darkest hour of despair. I kept questioning, kept thinking, pondering, reading, studying and then listening. And then like a morning sunrise, it began slowly, piece by piece, my faith and God began to take form that God was something you cannot explain and put into a bottle or package. It is both an intellectual feeling and a peace that comes from seeing the world, science and life in a completely different perspective.

Church history, the story of JS, doctrine is just “what it is.” Other religions, cultures and traditions are just “what they are.” It came from men, from their experiences and their own beliefs. Who am I to judge the reality, the illusion, the experience the story, the creation of one’s culture of another? Perhaps the religion is the creation of tangibles to make up for what we cannot comprehend until we are ready to come full circle, yet end up in the same place with a different perspective.

I find faith and God not in a doctrine, not in a story, not in a practice, not in one’s vision not in ones testimony. I found God when I was without God, when I had to struggle without my traditions, beliefs and faith. The dark journey felt like I was stripped form anything that gave me a tangible hold on my beliefs and faith. All the primary stories, beliefs and gold plates, the visions that were so tangible in my life were like a scaffold that was being removed. It seems like spirituality emerges best when God removes the childish faith from our soul in order to emerge with a child like faith.

So where do I go from here?

Although I see a great service to provide support for those in their darkest hour, I’m perplexed at the StayLDS.Com mission to exclude loving and patient measures to reach out to general authorities to aid and pave a way for those that think and believe different from the LDS text book model.

I’m guessing that the conversation may be happening in a private setting, rather than in public. However, I’m just wondering if little progress is being made because two issues are being discussed together. One conversation is the accuracy of church history and doctrine that may be the spark to so many to eventually leaving the church. Yet, the other conversation is “post faith crisis” finding a way to accept others into membership but may not have the ability, are not ready or have temporary circumstances that prevent them from accepting the priesthood or priesthood assignments, temple, HT or VT, serve a mission, a calling, pay a full tithe and still be considered worthy or righteous.

I have a hunch that in private there is less agreement on the first conversation to become forthright and accurate about church history and doctrine. I now can see the blowback to the innocence of so many church members. It is almost a type of spiritual maturity to hold back, just as my wife did with me for over 30 years. She knew I wasn’t ready. There is reason and compassion for holding back.

As to the second conversation, it appears that there is more agreement that by doing all the checklist items in church does not make one “worthy or righteous.” Yet, (and I’m guessing based on a hunch), that because the two issues are continually brought up together in the same conversation, the sensitivity lies in the first conversation rather than the second conversation. And secondly, there is great fear or a lack of understanding as a religious practice or policy, how can a church organization allow for cafeteria Mormons without jeopardizing the integrity of commandments and church?

If we can take polygamy as an eternal doctrine, give it a complete face lift and declare that marriage in the sight of God is between one man and one woman without declaring that polygamy is no longer an eternal celestial practice, we can figure out how to accept people that are different.

If Emma can be a catalyst to influence church practice, then it can happen again. Perhaps my hope is naïve. I’m guessing that so as long as people that think different and are not ready to accept all the practices that bring the title of “worthy or righteous,” will cause retention to suffer and those that linger around the LDS support groups may simply be temporary.

I can see tremendous growth and retention by allowing people to be different in the church and grow at their own pace. The church does not have to compromise the requirements for Temple attendance; they just don’t have to make it universal. There is almost irony in a church that sets a doctrinal example to the world that in heaven and God’s house there are many mansions and many rooms. Yet are doctrinal practice is either active or inactive, worthy or not worthy, a heaven or hell practice. Doctrinally, there isn’t even a physical place called hell. Yet there is no room for the different and those not quite ready for to meet the Temple requirements.

How can one be an influence or set an example if those that are different or don’t fit are at home and not a church? Has church become a place for the pious rather than the sinner?

Again, this has become even so clear and a “no brainer” to grown the church and maintain retention and even increase donations, I really don’t understand why it would not be a concern and goal of the leadership of this and other LDS support groups.

Perhaps someday we will change our heaven or hell practice. Perhaps someday the Temple questions will sound like this. Do you use wisdom in paying your tithing? Do you use wisdom in managing your church calling with the priorities of your family? Do you use wisdom in keeping the word of wisdom? (Is there any irony in that last question?) Do you use wisdom in the principle of honesty with your fellow man? Perhaps we will move from an Old Testament practice and usher our new millennial environment with a New Testament practice.

Is the forest so dense that trees cannot be seen? Is the wave of change throughout the world just not obvious? Is not an outpouring of knowledge to the world and a brighter new generation of youth not enough for to recognize the whisperings from God?

Having at best, barely average intelligence, I have learned to rely on whisperings, feelings and a hunch, mingle with my best attempts at thinking things through with what God gave me. Do not ask me why, because my answer is stranger than fiction, but I’m impressed with Dieter Uchtdorf. Perhaps his wife will listen too. My wife knows the story as to why. Sufficient to say, I have a hunch he and his wife will become a modern day Emma for change. My prayers are with you John Dehlin and friends to be representing so many.

God is no longer in a place to me. I feel God in my surroundings; in the eyes of people I meet, in my neighbor, the stranger, and the needy and in all of creation and life. Yet, if I just learn to continue to be still, I can now see what I could not see nor hear before.

My deepest hopes that those that come here may continue the good fight and find peace at whatever level, at whatever place you happen to be on the path of faith. For me, the first, and now the last principle of the gospel being faith have opened the door to the greatest commandment to love God and thy neighbor as thyself. Repentance is simply what comes natural when I feel love. May we all have compassion and love for our difference and use wisdom I what we say and what we do.

Thanks for the opportunity to share.

Johari

[Anonymous]

Wow. That was quite the introduction.

Welcome.

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[Anonymous]

Hi Johari, thanks for sharing your story.

I too hope and wish for change.

The Bishop once said to me: “The church is more like a huge ocean liner. You can turn a speed boat around in seconds, but an ocean liner will take much longer to turn around and only by small degrees.”

I do see change. Dehlin and Mattsson would have probably been excommunicated 20 years ago.

The church is moving (by degrees) towards a more collaborative position. It used to be the hidden, insular “cult” of the Utah valley. It is now trying to be a grown up global religion.

The change is not fast enough for me. I doubt I will be alive when it reaches the position I’d like it to be in. But maybe I can, at my local level, help to keep steering it a few more degrees towards where we want it to be.

[Anonymous]

Hi MacKay11

Your feedback is encouraging to know that beyond support, many others are patiently waiting for the ocean liner to turn. I think many others sense the coming change – – but it is very slow. I think seeing some change little by little is the knot at the end of the rope that keeps us hanging around. I look forward to the day I can bring back many of my family, relatives and friends that left because they would be made to feel out of place.

And you are correct – – we are not seeing the excommunication that we have seen. In part I think, they can see these individuals are not anti-Mormon, but are sincere and kind individuals truly concern for accuracy and living our religion in a healthy way – – if that makes sense. Joanna Brooks is another blog from San Diego that would have been excommunicated 20 years ago. She is forthright, insightful, sincere and accurate and shares the feelings of a lot of disenfranchised LDS members.

Hope we both can see that day before we see our grave. My time is running short myself.

Johari

[Anonymous]

What cwald said.

I really like the allegory of the vineyard in Jacob 5 – and I apply it directly to pruning away the mess that grows naturally within “the kingdom”. It’s a constant process, and it won’t be finished until the very end. Frankly, I like being part of that pruning of doctrine, practice and culture, even as I ache for those who are improperly pruned by others, like has happened to some who comment here.

[Anonymous]

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your comments. I do agree that social evolution is a natural process. I appreciate what you and others are doing for the cause. However, although we might feel at times we are trying to move a mountain using our own kitchen spoons, I can’t help seem to get rid of this childish or child-like hope that someone out there will connect with the powers that can influence the key change we are looking for to accept those that are not ready for every practice in the church.

Then again, I remember learning about how long it took to change our stance on blacks and the priesthood. If I remember right, although there were many events and people who paved the way, it rested heavily on Spencer W Kimball’s mind where (at least it seem from the outside looking in) it took mainly one person to see it through. Perhaps it was more complex.

We are putting our shoulder to the wheel for a good cause – – but it’s now time to put air in the tires.

thanks for being one of those paving the way – – never under estimate the power and influence of one.

Johari

[Anonymous]

Johari, I absolutely have a Don Quixote complex. I really do want to change the world – and I’ve learned how to do that, in small but important ways, within “my own world”.

I also see the current top leadership as moving in the right direction, and I am encouraged by much of what I see and hear now. There still are major things I hope change, and the water doesn’t get to the end of all the local rows (as some here understand even more deeply than others), but I really do believe the boat is turning and the trees are being pruned (and I think it’s interesting that the (plural) trees are being pruned within the vineyard, not just “The Tree”).

Most people don’t read that closely and think about the implications, but I think they are profound.

[Anonymous]

Ray,

I truly hope you are right.

In some cases I do see more compassionate and understanding leaders when you get to a one on one private meeting. But at the same time, you get these same leaders in a public setting just as stern as I have every seen when they lead to enforce the text book model duties and structure. I have children and family with social disabilities and moderate autism which become victims of the stern pruning process to weed out those that don’t fit the model. (I understand it is unintentional – just what happens).

The one thing I cannot figure out in the pruning process – which kind of people will finally end up remaining. Those who would sit at the table of a sinner or those who would cast a stone at a sinner. I’m not sure who is winning at this point. I will give it some more time and hope I’m encouraged by the tides of change. I can tell you have a great commitment to the process and impressed with your patience. That does shine a light on how far one could go with their patience – – perhaps a lesson to be learned. – thanks for this forum and your example.

Johari

[Anonymous]

Johari wrote:

Ray,

I truly hope you are right…

Johari

Me too. I’ve been saying that to Ray for years. AND I mean it. I truly hope Ray is right.

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[Anonymous]

Hi Cwald – I sense your passion

Ray will have to be our “Ray of Hope” (I’m sure you’ve heard that before).

Great to see that you have hung around this site for so long –

Johari

[Anonymous]

Johari wrote:

Hi Cwald – I sense your passion

Ray will have to be our “Ray of Hope” (I’m sure you’ve heard that before).

Great to see that you have hung around this site for so long –

Johari

Yeah. Perhaps I’m just a Mormon masochist?

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[Anonymous]

Wow. Great thoughts. I have been telling my local leaders for quite some time that we need to quit obsessing about making every member an endowed member and instead just make them feel like they are loved and needed and wanted at church. I am on the high council and I try to preach some form of that message each time I speak. I have been talked to a few times by my leaders but I haven’t been released instead I have been encouraged to continue to teach my message. I know that I make some people mad and other nervous but each time I give a talk someone come up to me and thanks me for my words and I haven’t given many talks were someone doesn’t ask for a copy of my talk.

Your words were so refreshing to read. If it is alright with you I would like to use some of your thoughts in future talks. You really have a great way of expressing yourself and it is a message I think we all need to hear. Again thank you for your spirit and thoughts. I was reading Grant Palmer’s book, An insider’s view, tonight and was feeling a great deal of discouragement. The fact that I am writing this at 2:00 in the morning when I should be sleeping should tell you something. I still have a lot of sleepless nights but after reading your post I feel hopeful knowing that there are others out there who feel the same as me. This is a great site and we need people like you and all the other posters to fight the good fight. I have grown to love and also count on the many “friends” I have here. They give me the strength to keep my calling and keep me as part of this church.

[Anonymous]

Johari wrote:

In my darkest hour however I felt anger towards church leaders. I now feel compassion for what they cannot see or what they may not hear…I’m perplexed at the StayLDS.Com mission to exclude loving and patient measures to reach out to general authorities to aid and pave a way for those that think and believe different from the LDS text book model…I’m guessing that the conversation may be happening in a private setting, rather than in public. However, I’m just wondering if little progress is being made because two issues are being discussed together. One conversation is the accuracy of church history and doctrine that may be the spark to so many to eventually leaving the church. Yet, the other conversation is “post faith crisis” finding a way to accept others into membership but may not have the ability, are not ready or have temporary circumstances that prevent them from accepting the priesthood or priesthood assignments, temple, HT or VT, serve a mission, a calling, pay a full tithe and still be considered worthy or righteous…because the two issues are continually brought up together in the same conversation, the sensitivity lies in the first conversation rather than the second conversation. And secondly, there is great fear or a lack of understanding as a religious practice or policy, how can a church organization allow for cafeteria Mormons without jeopardizing the integrity of commandments and church?…If we can take polygamy as an eternal doctrine, give it a complete face lift and declare that marriage in the sight of God is between one man and one woman without declaring that polygamy is no longer an eternal celestial practice, we can figure out how to accept people that are different…I can see tremendous growth and retention by allowing people to be different in the church and grow at their own pace…How can one be an influence or set an example if those that are different or don’t fit are at home and not a church? Has church become a place for the pious rather than the sinner?…Again, this has become even so clear and a “no brainer” to grown the church and maintain retention and even increase donations, I really don’t understand why it would not be a concern and goal of the leadership of this and other LDS support groups…Is the forest so dense that trees cannot be seen?

These are good questions and observations you bring up. Personally I think Church leaders typically feel threatened by criticism of almost any current doctrines and policies because most of them probably still have the same kind of all-or-nothing simple unquestioning faith that many rank-and-file members do. Even if they know about some of the problems my guess is that most of them haven’t really connected the dots and don’t really want to go there as far as seriously considering the possibility that maybe the Church really isn’t more or less what it claims to be. For many of them the Church is all they have really known their entire lives and they are surrounded by others that expect them to uphold tradition so this puts additional constraints on the way they tend to act and see things.

As far as the two issues of doctrinal accuracy and acceptance of those that are less faithful than what the Church is used to it seems like the primary focus of critics, apologists, and leaders is mostly on the accuracy of the doctrines. However, in reality it looks like the relative success of various religious and political groups doesn’t depend that much on how true their doctrines are or not because so many of the ideas they hold are completely different to the point that they can’t all be true at the same time because they contradict each other and yet they continue to compete for their share of followers.

To me the bigger problem than the troubling history and contradictions with the traditional doctrines and scriptures is in a word overzealousness. The Church continues to make many very specific claims that are fairly easy to discredit apparently mostly because of overzealous attitudes about the supposed reliability of prophets and revelation. The Church sets the expectation that members should have a testimony of the restoration, BoM, etc. and acts like it is not alright if members don’t believe in all of this at the same time. And worst of all the costs of being an active member are relatively high in proportion to any obvious benefits and the realistic level of hope that they will ever pay off once you consider both sides of the story.

The Church can’t really change some of the history and contradictions that already exist and are being exposed more than ever by the internet. So it seems to me that it would be much easier and more efficient to respond to this change by trying to improve the cost-benefit ratio and lower members expectations about what exactly prophets, scriptures, etc. are supposed to mean and allow more flexibility in the interpretation of doctrines than to try to enforce the current definition of worthy at all costs when an increasing number of members are never going to return to the same traditional beliefs they had before.

[Anonymous]

Johari, I see the pruning process as focused on eliminating incorrect things, not people – and I think reading it as pruning people is common but destructive and misguided. I believe firmly that the emergence of “bad fruit” is inevitable when dealing with people (including myself), since all of us see through a glass, darkly, and are limited in our ability to produce “good fruit” – which means the pruning process is continual and sometimes ends up lopping off things that shouldn’t be pruned.

I was raised in orchard country, and pruning never stops. It has been overdone at points in our history, but I see an effort to do it more carefully and charitably now.

Local leaders, otoh, are a crapshoot – even though I believe strongly that the vast majority try not to be extremist.

DA, I agree that overzealousness is perhaps the biggest issue we face. There is a huge difference between being faithful and valiant and being a zealot. Too often, that difference gets lost in translation.

[Anonymous]

Wow, what a great post! I feel the same way about the Church. I firmly believe that LDS spends more time trying to make everyone perfect, instead of accepting those who aren’t. I was a prime example of someone who constantly tried to be the ideal LDS saint, who couldn’t ever get to that point. Why couldn’t the leadership in LDS simply accept those who are different and stop pressuring them to change? Jesus Christ Himself spent a lot of time teaching those who needed spiritual help. As a Church, LDS does a poor job in my opinion, with those who fall a little short. Their disciplinary system itself is enough to scare people away. Who in their right mind would take a chance on being punished by the Church if they don’t quite stack up? It’s like putting up a “No Trespassing” sign at a place that is supposed to be a sanctuary from the world.

I believe that the Church will eventually address these issues. Based on what I have read here, there are many of us who have either questions, doubts or just feel rejected. Boards like this could be a great help to those who need it. I do worry about apostasy and if we would be accused of this because we post here. I do hope that someone in Salt Lake reads and respects this board and it’s members. There is a lot of good stuff in these posts that the Church could use to get a vibe on those who are struggling or looking for answers.

God bless you and I hope you can find peace and support.

[Author]

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