A Time for Change

[Anonymous]

Church 333

Thanks for your thoughts. I know what you are experiencing – – hang in there – I came to the conclusion its worth fighting for your heritage and as Ray D. would say – help in the pruning process.

Ray D – makes a good point that the fight is probably with the overzealous rather than the faithful. We then have to be careful how we set an example, tread carefully and not become overzealous ourselves. We’ll kill’m with kindness.

I really know what you are up against serving on the high council. Use wisdom as you set an example and be wise in what you say over the pulpit you your talk assignments. Use humor, personal stories and keep a smile when you give your HC talk – – it helps in teaching the message of love and acceptance of others – but don’t focus too much on it – it will make them nervous. Its better to be in the trenches and HC where you can be an influence rather than get yourself released. We need the salt everywhere.

I did not reveal everything in my introductions. So to help relate with you, I’ve served in Bishoprics 3x, HC’s 3x, Bishop, singles ward, military wards (prior Army reserve military chaplain 4 yrs), – – and you can be a great influences if approached in the right way.

Best to you –

Johari

DA –

Thanks for your insight. I agree with you and Ray D. regarding overzealousness being a bigger concern. I know the change in allowing more flexibility and its interconnection to doctrine- -it’s a tricky one. However, we have a history of making changes that contradict previous doctrine – – but they way they do it is present the new policy, practice or doctrine and then they really don’t bring up the old doctrine or policy anymore if possible. When asked – they respond, “Let’s not dwell on the pass – let’s look forward.” I believe they know how to walk that fine line very well. It’s just a matter of when – – whether it is done slowly and subtly or an outright public announcement that temple, priesthood, etc will become a choice rather than a requirement. For now – – it’s good to hear many are patiently and wisely helping the cause.

Thanks,

Johari

Ray D –

Thanks for your clarification on the pruning. That does makes good sense now.

I can tell you’ve been doing this for awhile. Good insight and comments.

I can also see how there is a very fine line in these support forum’s on how one expresses frustration without sounding anti. However, I think there is a difference between constructive complaints to make a positive point in the end versus simply anti. I’m sure you recognize the difference.

Thanks again for your comments.

Johari

[Anonymous]

Welcome Johari,

I especially resonated with the following paragraphs:

Quote:

I find faith and God not in a doctrine, not in a story, not in a practice, not in one’s vision not in ones testimony. I found God when I was without God, when I had to struggle without my traditions, beliefs and faith. The dark journey felt like I was stripped form anything that gave me a tangible hold on my beliefs and faith. All the primary stories, beliefs and gold plates, the visions that were so tangible in my life were like a scaffold that was being removed. It seems like spirituality emerges best when God removes the childish faith from our soul in order to emerge with a child like faith.

This was my experience as well. When all was stripped away and I felt deep in my heart that God loved me. At the time I took that as a sign or message and it became my foundation. Now looking back I can see that even this is based on faith. It is no more logical than DW’s belief that priesthood authority is real or my bishop’s foundation that JS was a prophet or an atheist position that there is no God. These are not to be proved and just “are” or “are not” in the mind of the beholder. I am no better or worse than they for landing where I did. I try to make thoughtful choices about where I go from my foundation but that is another matter.

Quote:

I can see tremendous growth and retention by allowing people to be different in the church and grow at their own pace. The church does not have to compromise the requirements for Temple attendance; they just don’t have to make it universal. There is almost irony in a church that sets a doctrinal example to the world that in heaven and God’s house there are many mansions and many rooms. Yet are doctrinal practice is either active or inactive, worthy or not worthy, a heaven or hell practice. Doctrinally, there isn’t even a physical place called hell. Yet there is no room for the different and those not quite ready for to meet the Temple requirements.

I love this as well. I believe that making room for spiritual diversity in the church is very important. I have heard that correlation has refined the LDS message – making it more straightforward and less folksy – but also narrowing the acceptable perspectives.

Quote:

Although I see a great service to provide support for those in their darkest hour, I’m perplexed at the StayLDS.Com mission to exclude loving and patient measures to reach out to general authorities to aid and pave a way for those that think and believe different from the LDS text book model.

I can’t speak for the MOD’s but I believe StayLDS has had to prove itself as an “objective bystander” of sorts. StayLDS has been called a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” publicly by at least one person in the apologetics community and has had to make a case that the site wasn’t interested in recruiting or trying to “steady the ark” or becoming agitators in any way. StayLDS recommends with Ghandi that the individual should “be the change you would like to see in the world” but StayLDS cannot be a platform for that change. We are not a movement, or a separatist group, or a New Order. We don’t advocate a message or a system. Although there are some common threads, we try to allow multiple view points and accept whatever works for the individual as long as they are doing no harm. We are a support group and the mission of offering support would be hampered if some church leaders saw excuses to demonize us. There are plenty of other places to sign petitions and otherwise try to make one’s voice heard by leadership – At least this has been my observation.

I can very much identify with much of what you have written. No two of us will ever be the same, but some of the experiences and challenges we have gone through are so similar as to make us into brothers in a sense. Welcome to the family – or as some have put it – the isle of misfit toys.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I’m perplexed at the StayLDS.Com mission to exclude loving and patient measures to reach out to general authorities to aid and pave a way for those that think and believe different from the LDS text book model.

{Admin note:] Just to clarify and add to Roy’s comment, we don’t exclude those measures – in theory. As individuals, we tend to embrace them. However, as a site, we don’t endorse anything that is an organized effort of any kind. That mostly is because we are committed to honoring complete freedom of individual belief – and we will not “take an official stand” as a group that would exclude some of our members and their personal beliefs. We tend to be more heterodox / unorthodox in how we see many things, but our individual beliefs about lots of topics are all over the map.

In other words, we aren’t about unanimity of belief about anything – so we refuse to take actions as a site that would give the impression we believe in that sort of unanimity of belief. Our mission isn’t organized social activism; it’s purely support-focused.

[Anonymous]

Johari, thanks for your military service. I served in the Navy reserve for 20 years and served as a serviceman group leader in Fallujah, Iraq back in 2006-7 after being deployed. It’s nice to have common backgrounds with many here. Again welcome.

[Anonymous]

Roy & Ray

Thanks for your comments on the mission of StayLDS. Your explanations make senses and I agree. I guess if the forum had a mission to change everything we disagreed with in the church, we would be all over the map. I think there are plenty of boots on the ground taking care of that cause. This support forum is already reminding me to put on my hospital slippers rather than the battle boots each morning and especially on Sunday.

Thanks again – I’m learning with new eyes and ears. It is refreshing and the fruit is delightful when such good wisdom is served here. Great place to get a reality check.

Johari

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