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DarkJedi wrote:
FWIW, one of the counselors in our stake RSP is a single professional woman in her 30s, and we previously had a divorced single mother, also a professional, in that position. The former was released to be YWP in her ward. One of the counselors in the stake Primary presidency is also a single (divorced, childless) professional woman.
Yes! Exactly this.
In our area, single professional women with or without children do just fine in the church. It is the women who followed the church CES and culture advice and did NOT get professional-class credentials who suffer. All is fine as long as they are married and SAHMs. But once divorced, without marketable skills, they either re-marry within a month or two, move in long-term with relatives, or are supported socially and financially by their wards.
Everything went better if women had ignored the YW lessons and made sure they were well educated with marketable skills.
Visiting with people over the years, my perception is that families with a husband was better cared for on every level by a ward in times of financial hardship than a single mother with children.
That would certainly vary by circumstance and location.
I am curious to see what others have seen.
Whenever I think of CES, I think of a book I read several years ago called Self-Made Man. A woman dressed as a man and then wrote about her experiences in “strictly” male spaces like a strip club and a monastery. There are some strange parallels between the cultures in these places that are obviously so different, but also male-centric. CES is certainly one such institution. When only men get together to talk about and think about things, this is what you get. The thinking of a group like CES about women is pretty daft. Why isn’t that obvious to us? hawkgrrrl, I’d be interested in your thoughts about this. In my ward the YW leaders are more conservative and traditional than many of the male leaders. At our YW in Excellence this week the YW president got up and talked about how all the girls would be great moms. I was the last speaker and talked about a famous woman in the early 1900s who broke into traditionally male spaces and I ended by encouraging the girls to do whatever they want. I’ve asked all the YW leaders to expand beyond motherhood but they don’t listen. I’m not sure how to get through to them.
As a side note my daughter ditched YW in Excellence and right before leaving she did she told me she was pro-abortion. I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t have gone over well with her YW leaders.
Quote:In my ward the YW leaders are more conservative and traditional than many of the male leaders. At our YW in Excellence this week the YW president got up and talked about how all the girls would be great moms. I was the last speaker and talked about a famous woman in the early 1900s who broke into traditionally male spaces and I ended by encouraging the girls to do whatever they want. I’ve asked all the YW leaders to expand beyond motherhood but they don’t listen. I’m not sure how to get through to them.
I see the same thing. In my grumpier moments I blame other women – not so much men – for the pedastal/barefoot & pregnant mentality that pervades our culture. What do you, Hawkgrrl & AP, think?
NightSG, re the correlation between margarine consumption & divorce, tale as old as time my friend. Poor people buy margarine, and one of the main reasons people get divorced is financial stress. Nothing to see here. Moving on. Roadrunner & Mom3: Call it Stockholm Syndrome or whatever you will. Some of the staunchest sexists are women who benefit from patriarchy and who have sacrificed much to get those benefits. Be wary of such women. As Alice Walker said “I have seen the axe, and the handle is one of us.” Why do women in Africa perpetuate female genital mutilation on their daughters? Because it was done to them, and it’s their culture. It’s all they know. If they don’t do it, their daughters will be unmarriageable outcasts in their culture. They can’t envision other options that are better. There’s similar thinking within Mormon culture among women who have sacrificed their financial independence to stay at home. And honestly, it’s not always that easy in Mormonism to find a husband who will take you seriously, not see a career wife as a positive, care what her dreams are (beyond bearing his children). I think it’s gotten easier with each generation, but many of these women didn’t experience that world. They didn’t feel those were viable options. They did what they had to do.
mom3 wrote:I see the same thing. In my grumpier moments I blame other women – not so much men – for the pedastal/barefoot & pregnant mentality that pervades our culture.
We had a very nice talk about an unrelated topic last month. The speaker was a woman who had married late. She talked about her career, activities, travels, etc., and then said three times in three different ways that those things were nothing compared to motherhood. (Of course not, apples and oranges.) Men who talk about the importance of marriage and fatherhood don’t make work and career optional in boys’ minds. It’s about balance and priorities for them; why not for girls?I think you are right hawkgrrrl, but dang that is depressing to see it so clearly written down. Such a sad state. Quote:Hawkgrrl wrote:
Some of the staunchest sexists are women who benefit from patriarchy and who have sacrificed much to get those benefits. Be wary of such women.
My thought is that there are two separate dynamics going on:
1. Local leadership fills YW leadership positions with women who they know will promote a certain viewpoint. In my ward experience, there has been a statistically improbable number of women called to YW positions who do not have daughters. These mothers of teenage boys talk to the YW about “the kind of girl I want my son to marry” and the “kind of girl I want to raise my grandchildren”. These women do not stop to think that they have moved the goals of YW away from what is best for the individual young woman and have changed the YW goal to be “what is best for my sons and for me”
2. The second dynamic is about women and power. Traditionally, LDS women achieve power and position through whoever they are married to. Some women have interpreted that as an expectation to be financially supported without any effort on their part once the children are raised. As families have gotten smaller and household labor has become less labor intensive, there are LDS women who feel it is their God-ordained right to have children and then just be a financially well supported slacker for the rest of their lives. They see any push towards education or employment as ruining the great situation that they have landed in. They teach LDS girls to expect a free ride through life.
The YW leaders at the very top come from privileged backgrounds. The few girls who manage to duplicate that model of life is done at the expense of the vast majority of YW who would be better served by learning the importance of employment skills and education
Quote:…well-supported slacker….
😯 Quote:As families have gotten smaller and household labor has become less labor intensive, there are LDS women who feel it is their God-ordained right to have children and then just be a financially well supported slacker for the rest of their lives. They see any push towards education or employment as ruining the great situation that they have landed in. They teach LDS girls to expect a free ride through life.
The YW leaders at the very top come from privileged backgrounds. The few girls who manage to duplicate that model of life is done at the expense of the vast majority of YW who would be better served by learning the importance of employment skills and education.
Sounds harsh, and I wish to God it wasn’t true, but let’s be real. This is a big part of what’s going on. Just to add a quick story, my daughter (age 14) and her YW friend were hanging out, and her friend said she hated feminists. I said, “Why would you hate feminists?” She said “Because I don’t want to work! Why wouldn’t I rather hang around the house all day?” So, yeah, that’s exactly what you are talking about. That girl may get lucky and marry someone who is able to support her desired life of idleness or may not, but you can bet she won’t be prepared for what might happen. The women who aren’t prepared to have a career because they quit school or don’t get relevant experience or take exit ramps to have kids, these are the women who are completely vulnerable if their husband dies, cheats, leaves them, or simply gets laid off or hours cut or isn’t able to make enough in a difficult economy. Yet they have been told all a righteous woman needs to do is show up with a uterus.
amateurparent wrote:1. Local leadership fills YW leadership positions with women who they know will promote a certain viewpoint. In my ward experience, there has been a statistically improbable number of women called to YW positions who do not have daughters. These mothers of teenage boys talk to the YW about “the kind of girl I want my son to marry” and the “kind of girl I want to raise my grandchildren”. These women do not stop to think that they have moved the goals of YW away from what is best for the individual young woman and have changed the YW goal to be “what is best for my sons and for me”
I’ve seen it go sideways like you describe. [Edit: One of my daughters had a YW president/mother-of-four-sons who talked continually about how “boys are visual” and why porn is so tempting to them, and in nearly every lesson would reference the girls’ bodies. It was bad.] Sometimes the alternative is equally problematic. Some daughters enjoy going to YW to get away from their mothers. Some women are competitive with daughters to match – the bishop might perceive this and rule them out. I think this argues for more input, sharing of Mutual responsibilities,
a better curriculum,etc., to lessen the impact of a bad leader. Quote:2. The second dynamic is about women and power. Traditionally, LDS women achieve power and position through whoever they are married to. Some women have interpreted that as an expectation to be financially supported without any effort on their part once the children are raised. As families have gotten smaller and household labor has become less labor intensive, there are LDS women who feel it is their God-ordained right to have children and then just be a financially well supported slacker for the rest of their lives.Since that doesn’t describe me, I hesitate to say it describes anyone else, but indications are that they’re out there.
Quote:They see any push towards education or employment as ruining the great situation that they have landed in.
Since our leaders have never given genuine, unqualified support to the idea of women being educated and employed as anything but a Plan B, I don’t think we have a large enough sample of women to say this. To me it’s more like wishful thinking. Like anyone, male or female, might think: “Wish I didn’t have to work.”
Quote:They teach LDS girls to expect a free ride through life.
I expected to have what I saw in my own family and I wish I’d been more imaginative. I thought I’d have a husband and kids and a middle-class university salary to make do with. I expected to make my own everything, do all my own yardwork, repairs, remodeling, serve on the city council, and work a factory job when things got tight even though I had six kids at home. That’s not a free ride.
Quote:The YW leaders at the very top come from privileged backgrounds. The few girls who manage to duplicate that model of life is done at the expense of the vast majority of YW who would be better served by learning the importance of employment skills and education
I agree, but the solution starts way back before discussions about education and careers. And here’s where I do blame the men who are our leaders. They are the only ones with the power to set the baseline in the temple. Either we are equal or we are not.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Quote:As families have gotten smaller and household labor has become less labor intensive, there are LDS women who feel it is their God-ordained right to have children and then just be a financially well supported slacker for the rest of their lives. They see any push towards education or employment as ruining the great situation that they have landed in. They teach LDS girls to expect a free ride through life.
The YW leaders at the very top come from privileged backgrounds. The few girls who manage to duplicate that model of life is done at the expense of the vast majority of YW who would be better served by learning the importance of employment skills and education.
Sounds harsh, and I wish to God it wasn’t true, but let’s be real. This is a big part of what’s going on.
Maybe in more affluent, LDS-heavy areas. Or in families with long lines of women who didn’t work. I don’t think it applies to enough women and girls to generalize.
Quote:Just to add a quick story, my daughter (age 14) and her YW friend were hanging out, and her friend said she hated feminists. I said, “Why would you hate feminists?” She said “Because I don’t want to work! Why wouldn’t I rather hang around the house all day?” So, yeah, that’s exactly what you are talking about. That girl may get lucky and marry someone who is able to support her desired life of idleness or may not, but you can bet she won’t be prepared for what might happen.
When you look at this situation, do you see the obvious source of her [foolish] thinking. Just curious.
Quote:The women who aren’t prepared to have a career because they quit school or don’t get relevant experience or take exit ramps to have kids, these are the women who are completely vulnerable if their husband dies, cheats, leaves them, or simply gets laid off or hours cut or isn’t able to make enough in a difficult economy. Yet they have been told all a righteous woman needs to do is show up with a uterus.
And I think it’s even worse than that. Show up with a burning, heartfelt desire to be a wife and mother, start covenanting in the temple when you’re nineteen to hearken to a husband you may never meet or have, and be defined for life in the church as a hopeful, patient, faithful person who is waiting to be completed and exalted by connection to a spouse instead of a savior.
Quote:When you look at this situation, do you see the obvious source of her [foolish] thinking. Just curious.
I don’t know this girl that well, and we’ve only been in this ward a very short time. In my old ward, this isn’t something I would have expected to hear. This ward has a lot of “older” well-to-do- families, and the YW leaders are older. Not everyone in the ward is like that, but my daughter has been dismayed that (her words) she doesn’t have YW leaders she can respect. I asked why that was, and she said they weren’t “real” and they were just focused on appearances, Molly Mormons, and they are older and don’t really understand how things are today. They aren’t relatable. They only ever talk about marriage, and as she put it “I’m only 14! I don’t care about marriage! I want to do fun things with my friends!” She does like the service projects, but she said even the fun activities are all run by the adults, and they aren’t people she can look up to. They embrace the sexist lessons whereas her old leaders, even if they didn’t work, screamed with laughter over the sexist messages and said that wasn’t how you had to be. They were just more “real” she says. And honestly, I don’t think her friend’s mom is sexist, although again I don’t really know her, but I think she’s been given anti-feminist messages in YW and in the ward that are based on caricatures like “feminists are joyless man-haters who want to make women into men.”
On a very practical note, women who work outside the house are seen as having less time to give to church callings; women who don’t work are seen as being available for church callings. The irony is that many of the women who stay home have more kids still at home (both prior to school age and in school), are expected to more of the housework and school help, have husbands who are gone longer hours due to professional, salaried jobs, etc. Those factors, however, aren’t considered often – because, well, we all know SHMs have more time, since they have nothing else to do.
🙄 Ann wrote:We had a very nice talk about an unrelated topic last month. The speaker was a woman who had married late. She talked about her career, activities, travels, etc., and then said three times in three different ways that those things were nothing compared to motherhood. (Of course not, apples and oranges.) Men who talk about the importance of marriage and fatherhood don’t make work and career optional in boys’ minds. It’s about balance and priorities for them; why not for girls?
I have heard my older sister say this (essentially that a new life began for her when she had children). I believe that I could say the same – that being a parent marks in a way the end of the old era and the beginning of the new. That does not mean that I or my sister stay home. My sister is a lawyer working in California. I understand that she goes into the office a few days a week and does a significant portion from home by email. I can understand if someone decided to be a stay at home parent after an extended period of not being married – they would certainly be inclined to justify their choice.
Quote:…well-supported slacker….
I do not mean to diminish the work that is done in housekeeping and parenting with the following story. I have an LDS female work friend that was telling about her elderly mother. When the father died the children were out of the house but there was not sufficient savings/retirement for the mother to live independently. The mother was still young enough and able bodied enough to work. The grown children each contribute a monthly amount for the care of their mother since “it was just not right for her to have to go find a job”. I personally recoiled at that statement. Now I certainly do not want to force an older woman out on the street and I love that the family decided to take care of their own, but I find something amiss with the idea that she should expect her grown children to support her.
Old Timer wrote:On a very practical note, women who work outside the house are seen as having less time to give to church callings; women who don’t work are seen as being available for church callings.
I remember going to an LDS career center after my mission. I was counseled to go into a professional career that would give a good income, leave Sundays open for church service/attendance, and that I could step away from for a few years at a time when I was older to serve senior missions or in other demanding leadership positions in the church. I remember thinking that there seemed to be an awful lot of focus on me structuring my life in such a way that I would always be available to the church.
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