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Great post mom3. Well said…and very charitable.
Thanks cwald. You’ve met me in person. My gratitude to you is great. Thanks. Quote:Whatever happened to leaving the 99 and going after the one? The heavens rejoice more over one who has strayed and returned than they do over the 99 that never left—-I think it is because it usually means that someone had to reach out and fellowship and love the “one” back—I think that is what Christ intended for us to do.
Yeah, some people suck at that. Frankly, the 1 sheep is better off not being found by some people.
Good luck to you and for your husband. The difficulty bishops face, IMO, is that they are truly administrators more than they are ministers. They have a staff of positions to fill and keep filled or the whole thing collapses. So they delgate and they come to rely on anyone who is willing to take part of the administrative load, even if those people are really bad with people but simply committed and reliable.
I also had to laugh about the counselor being an actual counselor. When I was a teenager, my friend’s dad was the bishop. Although he was an education professor, he also did counseling, and he was kind of hilarious in youth interviews. He would take notes on a pad and say things like “mm hmm” to get you to keep talking. He’d look down at the paper and frown and say “go on.” It was like he thought he was a shrink. He’d ask questions like: “Why do you think that is?” or “Why do you think so-and-so said that?” It was maddening, but also amusing. My mom and I used to love to talk about our meetings with him and laugh about it.
“like” – Hawkgrrl. You made me laugh. Thanks. :clap: Hi momto11 – I thought about you a lot last night. I hope everything went well. If you care to share we’d love to hear. If not I understand and will keep prayers coming your way. Your situation with your husband has been handled poorly. I hope your visit with the bishop went well and you’ve been able to convey your concerns to a sympathetic ear. A note about your scout calling … I would prefer that leaders ask me directly how my calling is going rather than rely on what my husband says or thinks. Too often leaders assume they know what is happening or what one spouse wants then so does the other. This causes huge issues. I say the counselor was perfectly correct in how he handled it. Hopefully, you answered him honestly and confirmed what your husband said. Too often women get pushed here and there and do/don’t get callings based the men in their lives say. That’s wrong. If someone wants to know what I think they should ask me and not my husband. He’s a great guy but he he’s not me.
I just saw this thread and I am sorry for your difficulties. I have an insight I’d like to share that might help your husband. Not long ago as I was praying and pondering the roles of men and women really opened up to my mind. I saw in a way I hadn’t before that women are meant to lead in physical things here on earth (you know, cooking, cleaning, keeping the kids alive for at least 18 years) and men are meant to lead in spiritual things. The only thing is, a lot of times women seem to do the actual leading when it comes to spiritual things. You know, we tend to lead out when it comes to family prayer and scripture study and things like that.
As a result of my new understanding, I felt prompted to tell my husband that it was his job to take care of the spiritual things and that I would no longer be leading out on them. I told him I would support him but I wouldn’t be the one actually starting the processes. He really was concerned about our family’s spirituality, but hadn’t taken a lot of initiative because he never had to and I always felt like the dumped on spouse because I had to pick up the slack. The truth was, I chose to pick up the slack and had actually robbed him of his responsibilities. He’s really come through in some great ways since then as he’s taken his responsibility more seriously.
One thing that drives women to take over when they think men aren’t doing enough is a lack of faith in Christ. We worry that our husbands aren’t doing what they should and that our children will suffer for it so we go ahead and do it for them. We forget that the atonement covers all deficiencies and that we don’t have to do it all ourselves.
I know your problems aren’t the same as mine. I’m just sharing my story in case it contains any elements that might help you. However, I believe that what the spirit testified to me is true, that men are the spiritual leaders but that women tend to end up leading out anyway and that’s not healthy for any of us. I don’t know if that information will help in your situation, but I thought I ought to share it.
Called to serve Your story brings to mind something my wife said recently. She said “i don’t mind only men having the priesthood….at least then they have to do something. if women have the priesthood too then we would literally be doing everything in the church”
hawkgrrrl–that was pretty funny about your bishop–I had a bishop once that was a good’ ol country boy and would say say hell or damn (or both?) during an interview—shortly before I got married, I must have told him something about my self that hinted of a sexual nature—and he told me I’d make a great wife because I’d jump in the sack any time
I thought he was hilarious!!! Please, don’t get me wrong, he in no way said it so that it sounded nasty and inappropriate—i just think it was the country BOY in him coming out.observant–I have had times in the past when i tried to tell a leader I couldn’t do something–and it was like he didn’t hear what I was saying–so I finally had to ask my husband to tell the leader that I just couldn’t do it–when my husband told him–it was no problem. I have been taught that it is our responsibility to let our leaders know what is going on in our lives when they ask us for a calling–then they can choose to still extend the calling or to withdraw the calling. I have also been in such a bad state of mind before that a doctor told me that I needed to get rid of everything I didn’t HAVE to do—so my husband had me released from everything I was doing at church.
I have such a guilt complex about things, I was glad my husband had told the leaders i needed to be released because i had health problems—I really did not want to be called in and asked how my job was going when I knew that they had been told I couldn’t do it anymore. I had really wanted to go on a hike, but my feet were giving me trouble, but I kept persisting in trying to find a way to go—my doctor had to finally tell me, firmly, not to go on the hike. My husband will quite often remind me to be careful about how much I do, because I will sometimes overdo when I am feeling better—-so while I can certainly understand and appreciate your thoughts about wanting to talk to your leaders directly about how you feel—in this particular case, my husband knew what was going on and It may have taken me a while to get up the nerve to ask to be released. Once I thought it had been taken care of, I didn’t appreciate being called in and asked about it, almost as if he was double checking what my husband told him—-I would have preferred if they had just called me in and said your husband has explained to us about your health and we want to formally release you.
called to serve—-that was a wonderful insight you had for your family–but in our circumstance I have been told to keep trying to do the things that my husband isn’t leading out in—which of course makes me feel guilty because I’m not doing a good job of getting it done and feel like I am worse than him, because i really want our lives to be different–but I just don’t seem to have the strength, physically, mentally, or emotionally to go ahead and do it on my own. And, unlike your husband, right now, my husband isn’t very concerned about our spirituality—He has told me we should try and do something on Monday nights, and he is willing to have a prayer–but he doesn’t want to read scriptures and he doesn’t want to sing any songs. so, I there is going to be family prayer or scripture study—I am going to have to be the one to see that it gets done.
I have heard this man give a beautiful, simple and sincere testimony from the pulpit—and he hates to talk in front of people. I don’t know what has happened to him, I don’t think he is really sure–but I really want to see things get better.
As far as my visit with the bishop—I’m not sure how it went. I told him I was really bothered that the second counselor had placed a judgement on what my husband might do if we team-taught a class—because my husband had nothing but a good record of being faithful in his church callings–and that I felt like that was what pushed him over the edge. He was weak and he was struggling—I think it bothered him when he found out the reason the counselor decided he would not let us teach together. I told him i didn’t think the counselor thought very much of my husband. I also told him that I felt so bad that no one card about my husband–no one seemed to be reaching out to him—teh bishop told me that they cared. Words don’t mean alot when there is no action to back them up—but I didn’t say that to him.
I told him we were putting our house up for sale. I feel like I need to get my husband back to our old ward where people cared about us, and I know they wouldn’t just let him slip away like this ward has—at lest not without a fight to try and keep him.
He asked my what I thought my husband could do that would make him feel like he was needed or wanted or something along that line—i told him I didn’t think my husband wanted to do anything right now. But, I did feel the need to tell him that I think my husband is gifted. There is almost nothing I want built or need fixed that he can’t do–and he has had no formal training–he just picked it up on his own. I just wanted him to know that about my husband.
Called to Serve wrote:I saw in a way I hadn’t before that
women are meant to lead in physical things here on earth (you know, cooking, cleaning, keeping the kids alive for at least 18 years)and men are meant to lead in spiritual things. Ouch
:problem: As the male primary caregiver for my family (and often the stay-at-home parent), that statement comes across rather harshly. I am fully aware that there are a great many who think this way but I simply have to disagree. For me hard-line gender roles such as these are outdated and absurd. There are many wonderful nurturing, caring, and compassionate male homemakers in the world. Just as there are many profoundly spiritual females who are more than capable of leading.
This is just another issue where church culture needs to catch up with the rest of the world.
I have no problem with that as a legitimate answer for Called to Serve, especially as it resonated with her. I just don’t accept it as THE answer for everyone. I can see it both ways, and that helps a lot.
Canucknuckle wrote:Called to Serve wrote:I saw in a way I hadn’t before that
women are meant to lead in physical things here on earth (you know, cooking, cleaning, keeping the kids alive for at least 18 years)and men are meant to lead in spiritual things. Ouch
:problem: As the male primary caregiver for my family (and often the stay-at-home parent), that statement comes across rather harshly. I am fully aware that there are a great many who think this way but I simply have to disagree. For me hard-line gender roles such as these are outdated and absurd. There are many wonderful nurturing, caring, and compassionate male homemakers in the world. Just as there are many profoundly spiritual females who are more than capable of leading.
This is just another issue where church culture needs to catch up with the rest of the world.
I never thought about the comment from a feminist position, but I can see how I worded it might come across badly. Let me try to explain where I’m coming from.What I’m trying to combat is the idea that men are supposed to be the ultimate head of the household, leading in everything, including the things that should be the woman’s dominion. It seems that we want to place one person over everyone in the family, but that leads to inequality, whether it be the man or the woman leading (and it’s usually the man). Instead, we could have equal leadership if we would let one spouse lead in one area and one lead in another. So generally speaking, it would be the woman leading in physical things and the men in spiritual things because usually they are given the mental talents to lead in those areas.
I’m not for hard and set gender roles. Each couple should make their own decisions in those things. But what I am in favor of is balanced leadership and that’s something very few couples ever seem to get the hang of. I think a lot more women would be content with their maternal instincts if their husbands weren’t trying to dictate how they ought to do their job, giving the impression that “women’s work” is lesser than a man’s because he’s allowed to lead. Instead, let the man not only allow his wife to decide how she’ll run the house and act as her servant in that capacity (generally speaking here) and the woman would feel valued in this role.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Quote:Whatever happened to leaving the 99 and going after the one? The heavens rejoice more over one who has strayed and returned than they do over the 99 that never left—-I think it is because it usually means that someone had to reach out and fellowship and love the “one” back—I think that is what Christ intended for us to do.
Yeah, some people suck at that. Frankly, the 1 sheep is better off not being found by some people.
Ha! I nearly shot my Coke out of both nostrils when I read that!
😆 Unfortunately, probably true…Momto11–I wonder if “friendship” might be the best way for your bishop to show he cares about your husband. JS said that friendship was “one of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism.” This counselor probably feels a lot of pressure to make sure all the callings are filled at all times, and this might have been the reason he is less than charitable about it. Or maybe he’s an idiot. Either way I hope your husband gets the friendships he deserves in the ward–or elsewhere, if necessary.
Called to Serve wrote:Canucknuckle wrote:Called to Serve wrote:I saw in a way I hadn’t before that
women are meant to lead in physical things here on earth (you know, cooking, cleaning, keeping the kids alive for at least 18 years)and men are meant to lead in spiritual things. Ouch
:problem: As the male primary caregiver for my family (and often the stay-at-home parent), that statement comes across rather harshly. I am fully aware that there are a great many who think this way but I simply have to disagree. For me hard-line gender roles such as these are outdated and absurd. There are many wonderful nurturing, caring, and compassionate male homemakers in the world. Just as there are many profoundly spiritual females who are more than capable of leading.
This is just another issue where church culture needs to catch up with the rest of the world.
I never thought about the comment from a feminist position, but I can see how I worded it might come across badly. Let me try to explain where I’m coming from.What I’m trying to combat is the idea that men are supposed to be the ultimate head of the household, leading in everything, including the things that should be the woman’s dominion. It seems that we want to place one person over everyone in the family, but that leads to inequality, whether it be the man or the woman leading (and it’s usually the man). Instead, we could have equal leadership if we would let one spouse lead in one area and one lead in another. So generally speaking, it would be the woman leading in physical things and the men in spiritual things because usually they are given the mental talents to lead in those areas.
I’m not for hard and set gender roles. Each couple should make their own decisions in those things. But what I am in favor of is balanced leadership and that’s something very few couples ever seem to get the hang of. I think a lot more women would be content with their maternal instincts if their husbands weren’t trying to dictate how they ought to do their job, giving the impression that “women’s work” is lesser than a man’s because he’s allowed to lead. Instead, let the man not only allow his wife to decide how she’ll run the house and act as her servant in that capacity (generally speaking here) and the woman would feel valued in this role.
Fair enough.
🙂
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