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I feel as though I need to tiptoe around this site as I don’t want to turn it into simply a forum for pointing out the church’s flaws, as I am certain most listees do not. It is just that I was reading through many of the History and Doctrine Discussions and it struck me how many of us would see such flaws in another religion’s history and not call that religion a false religion? Why do we go out of our way to still defend the church when its flaws are so apparent? And this touches on something I may have mentioned in another post. Why would God makes us jump through so many hurdles just to find the true church? Why wouldn’t it be enough to accept the BofM has the word of God, to accept the JS story, to attend temple, etc. Isn’t it a devious God that would make it so difficult to hold onto the church any longer? These are the burning questions that remain unanswered for me.
Curt
Hi, I can appreciate your feelings. Maybe we do as you say as many of us have invested so much of our lives believing in it. Even with such obvious flaws that i now know about, I cannot just walk away…not yet anyway. I want to ponder things, let time do its thing, as I know sometimes with time, things become LESS concerning. Maybe I am a little in denial…who knows. I am usually a very decisive person, but with this I am just fence sitting for now.
My dh is dissaffected, and I have only in recent months started to understand his feelings as I am now going through them. I guess for me I am finding it hard to wonder what place religion would have in my life is I had no LDS interaction at all. I still see that my activity has been good for my life in many ways. I know that my life would still be good without it, but I guess I just cannot be “ungrateful” (cannot think of a better word) for what it has provided to date and just abondon it, even though I guess many many things will now bother me moving forward.
I am totally rambling…sorry. I dont have a real answer, just to me perhaps we stay as we are as it is like a parent/child thing. Even the most flawed parents in the word often have a hold on the child forever!!!! I guess I am just hoping to hold onto the church and filter out the incorrect stuff, and enjoy the good stuff. Again its trying to find the middle ground, that after 3 years of trying my dh gave up on as it just didnt work!
For me, the biggest things are understanding the theological alternatives, holding onto my own personal experiences and trying hard to live the Golden Rule – and, as I said in my “Personal Focus” post, not relying on the Church for my personal spiritual growth. 1) I’ve studied just about every Christian alternative, and I don’t like any of the options. The theology simply doesn’t inspire me, at all.
2) I have had some incredible experiences that can’t be separated from my membership (like the baby blessing that came through me to my second son), and I just can’t deny them.
3) I accept flaws in everyone and everything, and I have accepted what I have found in the Church – largely because I know how I and my life will appear to my great-grandkids. I don’t want them to judge me how I’m sure I will deserve to be judged objectively; I want them to see my effort and not get sidetracked by my flawed implementation and understanding.
I think a lot of us tiptoe around this site. I think it is for the best, and I would rather be here than any other forum except possibly New Order Mormon, which is also very moderate. Unlike Ray and Sally, I could just as soon be Catholic, Quaker, Unitarian Universalist, Baha’i, or Buddhist; but I am in fact LDS. The LDS are my people, and I believe it’s important to be good to your people, not just outwardly, but inwardly. You seem like you would prefer not to frequent the antagonistic forums. I think you would really appreciate the support at the New Order Mormon forum as well as here. The New Order Mormon forum does an excellent job of helping us journey toward a place where we cast off our dichotomous world view and can peacefully see both good and evil in all systems, organizations, and parties, including “our” (as we say at StayLDS) church.
Old-Timer wrote:how many of us would see such flaws in another religion’s history and not call that religion a false religion?
How many of us would see such flaws in another person’s history and not call that person a false person?
Old-Timer wrote:Why do we go out of our way to still defend the church when its flaws are so apparent?
In the 1990’s I had personal animosity toward Bill Clinton. Now if he came into the chapel I would greet him warmly and thank him for all the good he does in the world. Am I now blind to his flaws? No. I am only more aware of his humanity, which I will defend to eternity, and hope to see him one day in the bosom of the Father.
Old-Timer, maybe the church isn’t so great after all. Maybe we can’t hold onto it through thick and thin after all. Maybe it isn’t the light of the world after all. Maybe nobody in heaven really cares about all these ordinances after all. But it’s still all ours, and it still has immense humanity, and heaven still cares immensely. And so do I.
Before, it was, “The Church”; at New Order Mormon forum it is “just a church”; here it is “my church”. And I need to love it the best I can, whatever that means.
KM
Old-Timer wrote:I have had some incredible experiences that can’t be separated from my membership (like the baby blessing that came through me to my second son), and I just can’t deny them.
You also can’t deny that Catholics, Maoists, Muslims, and FLDS also have incredible experiences that they can’t deny. In my humble opinion, the transcendent meaning of these experiences is the core of reality. But the idea they can’t be separated from membership is quite possibly mistaken.
When suddenly your life’s deepest spiritual experience to date comes from a “Samaritan” source, the meaning of connection and division changes forever.
KM
Quote:it struck me how many of us would see such flaws in another religion’s history and not call that religion a false religion? Why do we go out of our way to still defend the church when its flaws are so apparent?
But that attitude of “I’m right, and you’re wrong” has to go, too. Honestly, Christ did that with Judaism a little bit, but it still somehow doesn’t seem Christ-like (stand back in case the lightning hits).
hawkgrrrl wrote:Honestly, Christ did that with Judaism a little bit
Wow! You are honest (and brave)!
Based on that, I am going to open an “Are LDS Christians?” thread.
KM
Quote:You also can’t deny that Catholics, Maoists, Muslims, and FLDS also have incredible experiences that they can’t deny.
You are right – and I never have. I am talking about why I am LDS.curt wrote:Why would God makes us jump through so many hurdles just to find the true church?
Isn’t it a devious God that would make it so difficult to hold onto the church any longer? I suspect God makes us jump through so many hurdles because He wants us to search. I think the value from God’s perspective is the *struggle* to find the ultimate truth, not the actually finding of it. I see life more like a personality test than an objective math exam (or something like that). You can fail a math exam if you answer the questions wrong. You can’t fail a personality test — you just get new insights when you are done.
On the second topic about God being devious, yes. He seems to be a very tough and demanding personal trainer
😈 It would have been so easy to not search and struggle. I had to touch the stove though, no matter how many times my parents told me it was hot.
curt wrote:I feel as though I need to tiptoe around this site as I don’t want to turn it into simply a forum for pointing out the church’s flaws, as I am certain most listees do not.
It isn’t so much that we can’t talk about them. The people who gravitate to this site know the deal. We know the flaws. If someone wants to talk about them, that is ok. This site is dedicated to finding a positive faith within a participation in the LDS Church, and to work past the flaws. Can’t work on these ideas without talking about them. It’s ok to feel angry and depressed about it sometimes. There are way better places to just vent and rant about it though. We’re not competing with those sites.
Those “venting” sites don’t want to hear about our faith, or our attempts to be compassionate towards the flaws in the Church. They are being angry. That’s fine.
This cozy little room here is for people when they want some peace, are ready to calm down more, and want to work on what is next (specifically staying in the Church).
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