Agency and Parental Attrition

[Anonymous]

One of the big points of contention between DH and me is the idea of what goals we have for our children. DH says again and again, his ultimate goal is for our kids to be temple endowed, temple married, our son to serve a mission, active members of the church – basically all the things you have to do if you want to go to the Celestial Kongdom. An admirable goal. My goal for our children is a little bit different: I want our kids to do all those things (mission, temple marriage, etc.) if that is what they themselves want. Oh – and if my kids fall short of these high expectations, even if they leave the Church, I’ll still love them because they are my kids. The problem is that when I say that, what he appears to be hearing is “Joni doesn’t share my goals for our kids” or even “Joni doesn’t want the kids to be married in the temple.”

For example: oldest DD is in 7th grade right now. Which means that early mornng seminary is right around the corner. DH didn’t participate in every-day, early-morning seminary and neither did I (DH grew up in Idaho and had release time; I did the home study program and petered out after two years but somehow was still able to get married in the temple ) but he absolutely expects that our daughter will be a seminary graduate. Now, there are a lot of reasons this may not happen – one of which being that DD has an anxiety disorder, and she’s already anxious about early-morning seminary even though it’s more than a year away, and I’m pretty sure that losing an hour of sleep every day will make the anxiety worse and not better. So I say things like “I would like her to try out seminary, but if she doesn’t like it or finds that it’s not working for her, she doesn’t have to go and I’ll still love her.” And DH makes absolute pronouncements like “SHE WILL go to seminary.”

But then it occurs to me that by expecting a 100% return on our children, aren’t we basically requiring ourselves to be better parents than God Himself? Like, a lot better? Mormon theology of the premortal existence tells us that Heavenly Father lost 1/3 of his children right off the bat. (We have 3 kids ourselves so that’s a really easy fraction to visualize. Just draw a line through one of our children, and never speak to that child again, ever.) Of the remaining 2/3, what percentage do we think is going to make it to the Celestial Kingdom? Maybe 10%? And of THAT fraction, what percentage makes it to the highest degree of glory within the Celestial Kingdom? Maybe another 10%? So 10% of 10% of 2/3 actually achieve Heavenly Father’s ultimate goal, the highest degree of exaltation, the ablity to become like him, etc. The rest of His children fall short – either a little bit short (Telestial Kingdom, Terrestial Kingdom, the lower segment of the CK) or a lot short (Outer Darkness; chose Satan’s plan in the PM existence). God is God and still loses most of His children. As a mortal person without His sense of perspective, how on earth am I supposed to do better?

Crunching the numbers inevitably makes me think about agency – God knew that if He let us have agency, the vast majority of us would fail to live up to His expectations. And He thought agency was important enough that He let us have it anyway. Do I have agency because I am God’s child, but my kids don’t have agency because they are my children? But wait, weren’t they His children first? God could have simply required that we all do the right things, all the time, but He did not. I think there’s got to be a reason for that.

[Anonymous]

I am right there with you on both the “if they want it” and “I can’t expect to have better batting average than God.”

So far not a confrontation as all my kids are checking the boxes, but I do think I have one son that soon will start pushing back and want to go slightly “off course” (like “I can’t handle the rules at BYU-I as they are too strict and they baby me”). As such this hasn’t been much of an issue between my wife and I, but I expect it might very well be coming.

Best of luck and keep us posted if you find a good way to explain it where it makes sense to your DH.

[Anonymous]

With some of the things people attribute to god I think people can have a better batting average than god. Exhibit A:

Joni wrote:

Oh – and if my kids fall short of these high expectations, even if they leave the Church, I’ll still love them because they are my kids.

This is one of those ultra-difficult things in any mixed faith relationship, parents settling on common goals for their children.

It’s in human nature to want the best for our children and in the Mormon tribe that translates to seminary, a mission, sealed in the temple, having a small army of children, being “active” throughout one’s life, and sometimes even extends to holding a prestigious calling. That’s how you know an orthodox parent really, really loves their child, they want those things for them. Unfortunately this often translates into a scenario where a parent feels like a failure because of what their child is or isn’t doing, which happens in any family, not just LDS families.

Again this all parents everywhere, I often see a parent become unhappy (or assume that their child will be unhappy) only because a child is making a decision that is different than the decision that the parent would make for themselves. Sometimes it’s justified, e.g. my kid became a criminal. Other times it’s something artificial and brings unnecessary pain, e.g. my kid won’t wear a purple bow tie every day, I’m miserable because I know they’ll be miserable. It gets really complicated when religion (or politics) enter the fray because people know what’s best for their children and what’s best for them can be a combination of justified and artificial things.

I also subscribe to the idea that I want my child to make and own their own decisions in life but they slowly transition into that as they become an adult. If you left all important decisions up to them they’d eat 2 lbs. of candy for dinner every night and stop attending public school to dedicate more time to the xbox. Being in a form of a mixed faith relationship myself this is one area where I struggle. I’m positive that there are kids out there that absolutely love church, I’ve seen them, but my kid? Oil and water… and I get that. I ask myself, what type of kid truly likes 3 hours of church? Probably not very many. Then I ask myself, how much should I push my children to engage with church because even though they don’t enjoy it the experience will help them get outside themselves and become better? I can always supplement their church instruction with instruction of my own, e.g. don’t try to assimilate everything, only take with you the things that resonate, it’s perfectly okay to ignore stuff that doesn’t resonate, etc.

I can’t give you advice on the seminary thing. That’s entirely between you and your husband (and your daughter). It’s tricky business. A fine line that many of us walk.

I do like using the preexistence as a story to remind ourselves that we shouldn’t be beating ourselves silly over how someone else employs their agency. Maybe god gave us agency so that we could surprise him every once in a while, he wants to see what we can create, not how homogeneous we can be.

[Anonymous]

Here’s another nugget from the seminary argument.

Me: What if being perpetually sleep deprived causes DD to do poorly in her academic classes?

Husband: Faith is more important than school.

Now first of all, as a former seminary teacher (really) I can tell you that he is dead wrong – that academics should absolutely take priority. But to look at the bigger picture, this is a line of reasoning I can’t get behind. Why don’t we pull the kids out of school so they can study the Book of Mormon 7 hours a day? After all, the scriptures are more important than geometry and history. Why doesn’t DH quit his job and become a temple worker 40 hours a week? After all, providing ordinances of salvation the dead is more important than what he does (marketing and sales).

And if you force your children to attend church, graduate from seminary, and serve missions, what happens afterwards? What happens when they are not under your control any more? Is it possible that taking a less heavy handed approach when they are in your home will have a better outcome later on?

[Anonymous]

I’m on the other end of where you are Joni. My youngest is a senior in high school. All of my children completed seminary, mostly early morning. I am a teacher (not seminary). Early morning seminary goes against all we know about teenagers and in my opinion is very ineffective. (That’s not just my opinion, my adult kids will tell you the same.)

That said, my youngest has had the opportunity to participate in online seminary, and what a difference it has made. He did attend early morning for a couple years, and I will say there is a world of difference in the two. For one thing it is apparent he gets much more out of online – it is harder and he has to do more than show up and sit there in a stupor to pass. As a side effect, he actually has been a bit more pleasant (as teen boys go) to be around since making the switch. I know online is not available everywhere, and in some places there are restrictions on who is allowed to attend (we have restrictions here). But if possible I highly recommend it.

[Anonymous]

Joni, I am really sorry you are having to go through this. It is a very hard situation when you and your spouse disagree on important matters that involve your kids.

I really dislike early morning seminary. What really bothers me is that the church, except for very few exceptions, won’t allow kids to do online seminary. Why is that? Sometimes I feel like they want to make things as hard as possible even when there is no reason for it. Kids who are in sports or other after school activities will have a long day if you include early morning seminary. They might leave home at 5:30 am and then not get home until 6:00 that night. On mutual nights, they have to leave again at 7 and not get home until 8 or 8:30. It seems so ridiculous and unnecessary to me.

I would feel the same as you but I don’t know the solution when your husband feels as strongly the other way. I would be concerned with my kids academics suffering, also. I also believe that kids at that age should get to start making some decisions on their own. Maybe church is a must do but maybe mutual and seminary can be negotiated. They obviously can’t decide everything for themselves but I personally think they should be allowed to start having a say in their own lives, even when it comes to spiritual matters. Heavenly Father doesn’t force us to do anything so why should we force our children to do 100 percent of what we say?

Sorry, I don’t have any answers but I do feel for you in this hard situation. I hope it all turns out okay.

[Anonymous]

Our DD has not and will not graduate from 4-year Seminary. Yet, for some reason, she was admitted to BYU.

The facts she has had a weak liver and has been enrolled at college since 15 & 1/2 y.o., made very difficult for her to go to the early morning seminary five days a week. So, she attended only a year during the sophomore year, then independent study during the junior year, the LDS Institute during the senior year. She did not go at all during the freshman year. Sure, some very meaning people with best intentions in the ward(s) told us to encourage her to go. But for us, her health was more important than the seminary or obeying or pleasing the seminary teachers. She wanted to please us and seminary teacher but we told her to live her life according to HER needs, not anyone else’s.

My missionary son only finished two years of seminary, not four. He is currently serving a Mission in Japan and he is a very successful missionary despite the fact he did not graduate from 4-year seminary.

My DH and I do not force our children to attend any church sponsored activities, although DH is pushier than me.

We, the parents, cannot guarantee how our children turn out to be. Never mind about the eternity; it is not our responsibilities. Parents job is to love them and try to accommodate their needs as much as possible so that they have relatively happy and productive lives (under the circumstances). We can teach them but I am not sure about the next one. “Making sure my kids get into the Celestial Kingdom” is a very understandable, caring parents’ statement; however, such outcome can not be guaranteed. Desire to live in a certain way and do the certain things must come from the child h/erself. Sure, we can suggest and influence, but it is ultimately his/her choice. And whether or not the child can attain a Celestial glory is decided by someone else, not us parents, unfortunately.

I did not grow up in a Christian or a Mormon home, yet I knew how I was supposed to live and what was right from wrong (although they were just basics). I did not have Gospel but I was OK and did not get into troubles. I think many Mormon parents are overly serious and uptight about raising children which can sometimes make parenting quite unenjoyable.

Seminary is not a prerequisite to be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom, neither the Mission. From the large scheme of thing, it does not matter. If we really want our children to be able to attain such a high goal, first of all, we the parents must be the type of people who are good enough to be admitted, before even talking about our children

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yes, that means I will fail.

After all, all we can do is to love them, nothing more. But that is just my personal opinion.

If your DD wants to go, she can try to see how it goes. If it’s too hard, she can switch to the independent study or the online course.

Difference in opinion between your husband and you sounds very common just like in many households. I suppose you can encourage your DD to go to the seminary initially to keep a peace at home. She can always change her mind later.

Below is the excerpt from my favorite parenting specialist which sort of sums up the way we should keep in our minds while raising our precious children.

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My child isn’t my easel to paint on.

Nor my diamond to polish.

My child isn’t my trophy to share with the world.

Nor my badge of honor.

My child isn’t an idea, an expectation, or fantasy.

Nor my reflection or legacy.

My child isn’t my puppet or project.

Nor my striving or desire.

My child is here to fumble, stumble, try, and cry.

Learn and mess up.

Fail and try again.

Listen to the beat of a drum faint to our adult ears.

And dance to a song that revels in freedom.

My task is to step aside.

Stay in infinite possibility.

Heal my own wounds.

Fill my own bucket.

And let my child fly.

–Dr. Shefali Tsabary

I love the Gospel but can’t stand with all the extra, never-ending busy works in the church! Some people, like us, can not keep up with them, no matter how much we want to (no, we don’t).

[Anonymous]

Quote:

And DH makes absolute pronouncements like “SHE WILL go to seminary.

Joni – On the one hand, where do you go with that? I can see why you’re upset and pessimistic looking down the road. On the other, could you start addressing your daughter’s anxiety so she’d be in the best condition possible if she does do early-morning? There are some good aspects of it, I think. But, yes, horrible schedule for teenagers. Does she consider these kids her main friend group?

[Anonymous]

Did your husband listen to Pres. Uchtdorf’s talk given in the Priesthood session this last GC? If so, he might want to listen again carefully. There is some good advice on how to treat your family in there.

[Anonymous]

I agree that Seminary does not matter. My seminary attendance was very poor. When I did go it seemed like just another Sunday school class with a few people sleeping (literally) in the back. At the college level I loved institute. It seemed to me to be exploring the scriptures rather than just reciting them. I did graduate from institute, served an honorable mission, and was married in the temple.

Why then do we do seminary at all?

Quote:

Seminary “provides wonderful opportunities to learn the doctrines that will make you happy. It provides wonderful opportunities for socializing with those of your own kind.”4

• “Your knowledge of the gospel will be increased, your faith will be strengthened, and you will develop wonderful associations and friendships.”5

Both of these quotes are from GBH.

I believe that seminary acts as a sort of guardrail. It is meaningless in and of itself but it will tend to ground kids in the church system. They will hopefully make friends with others that make the same daily sacrifice to attend. Also, attendance so early will likely curtail other evening activities. The church and church friends becomes a bigger part of the student’s life. Socialization and peer pressure can be a huge motivator in life.

I have heard that the biggest single factor determining if a young man serves a mission is if his friends are serving missions.

nibbler wrote:

I also subscribe to the idea that I want my child to make and own their own decisions in life but they slowly transition into that as they become an adult. If you left all important decisions up to them they’d eat 2 lbs. of candy for dinner every night and stop attending public school to dedicate more time to the xbox.

I agree. Many of the good things that we do with our kids cannot compete with TV or video games. If we are taking the kids (10 and to a basketball camp or art class and they decide not to go then that is their choice to stay home…but they will be staying home without the comforts of electronics. They may read or sleep or do homework or chores or ride bikes or jump on the trampoline or do so many things – just not involving electronics.

DW and I have different parenting styles. I am more permissive. She is more authoritarian. She tends to see our children’s choices and behavior as a direct reflection of herself (and unfortunately people do tend to judge the mom when they disapprove). I see our kids choices more as expressions of themselves. I have frequently reminded her that our role is more of a guide or a consulting role. We cannot force desired outcomes.

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