All About Near Death Experiences

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

I was watching something recently about a relatively new book on the phenomenon of people in extreme duress having a “visitor” help them through the duress. Most were mountain climbers on the verge of death, usually being “visited” by a deceased loved one who, ultimately, “helped” them find strength, courage, motivation to survive.

Sorry, by now someone is thinking, “YOU’RE AVOIDING THE OBVIOUS ANSWER: DIVINE INTERVENTION!!!”

Due to my current “place” on the belief spectrum, I tend towards the humanistic, evolutionary explanation which allows that the sub-conscious is probably the deliverer of these experiences: near-death, extreme duress, out-of-body, dreams, hallucinations, alien abduction, etc.

You’re cool. A couple of thoughts.

1. Divine intervention.

Consider letting go of everything you “know” about “God”. All the old ideas. All the old constraints. All the old rules. Suppose it isn’t divine intervention at all. Suppose it is brought about by the condition of the mind.

2. Vistors in Duress

A story:

Quote:

From ages three to eight, I had an “imaginary” friend I named Mr. Cardine. He would take me to places outside my body and tell me what was going to happen to me and other family members. I could also see other beings, but I could not see Mr. Cardine. When I would be out of my body, I could see people having conversations and I could listen to their plans. It was very hard to understand why other people did not believe me when I would tell them what was going to happen.

Mr. Cardine was very friendly and never frightened me. I thought everyone knew Mr. Cardine and I would talk about him to everyone. Soon I was the target of ridicule and bullying because nobody believed my stories or that I had an “imaginary” friend. My mother got frightened because I was telling her things that happened and were going to happen. Her concern for my behavior prompted her to go to a preacher in the Holiness denomination and he began to tell me that Mr. Cardine was not real. I would tell him things about his life and he told mother to take me to a doctor.

The doctor told me to kill Mr. Cardine and my parents wanted me to tell them when he dies. One day while I was talking to some of the other beings, mother got angry and gave me a spanking and then dad did the same when he got home. Mr. Cardine was the main being in that realm of existence. He could make all the others leave. I could not hear his voice or see him; it was a presence I would feel and the communication was verbal on my part, but I am not sure how I understood him.

I would see many other beings too. Some of them looked like melted piles of tar and I was very afraid of them. They were able to move through walls and I could tell that they had no boundaries, as I knew boundaries. I remember their presence mostly when my parents were arguing or drinking and arguing. Mr. Cardine could make the tar-like beings leave.

The last time I was aware of Mr. Cardine was the day I had to tell my parents he had fallen off the roof, broke his leg and died. He told me to do this and said he would always be with me but I could not talk to him anymore because of the beatings my parents started giving me when they caught me talking to him.

The “rest of the story” includes an NDE later in life with an appearance by, you guessed it… Read it here: http://www.iands.org/nde_archives/experiencer_accounts/childhood_imaginary_friend/nde_guide.html

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

Sorry, by now someone is thinking, “YOU’RE AVOIDING THE OBVIOUS ANSWER: DIVINE INTERVENTION!!!”

Due to my current “place” on the belief spectrum, I tend towards the humanistic, evolutionary explanation which allows that the sub-conscious is probably the deliverer of these experiences: near-death, extreme duress, out-of-body, dreams, hallucinations, alien abduction, etc.

I lean this way too (but always open to new info…).

One similar (maybe?) area of study is that of the “spiritual” part of the brain. It is in the temporal lobe, and is measurable when stimulated. We can observe the action there under certain stimuli — meditation, prayer, fasting, etc.. And the description of the feeling has common traits by each person — euphoria, feeling of oneness with others and nature, timelessness, total absence of fear, etc.

A peer-reviewed study was published by researchers at Johns-Hopkins in 2006 testing the effects of psilocybin (a hallucinogenic drug found in mushrooms) on a large controlled group of people. Those that “used” it felt a euphoria that compared to their most powerful spiritual experiences previous in their lives. They also reported an increase of hope and faith in life, regardless of their “religious persuasion.” And it lasted for the next few years, at least, even though they didn’t continue to “use” anymore.

I think paralells can be drawn to the NDE, but of course much more studying will help us understand it better.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

However, you seem pretty comfortable with your current atheistic model. I say go with it as long as it seems best to you.

I hope I’m not coming across as atheistic. I wouldn’t consider myself an atheist at all (although I agree with some parts of it if we take it as a “religion”).

I do want to understand your view, and I have only briefly looked at NDEs. I have only read a few. Your second point is very important, indeed we are not after “proof” but what is “most likely.”

I must confess, I am less interested (to determine the cause of NDEs) in reading the NDEs themselves (this is like reading 100 TBM testimonies to decide if the church is true), and more interested in reading some good scientific analysis. Would you be able to point in the direction of some good scientific analysis to support your point? You mentioned a few individuals, but is there anything published in a science journal or anything you could direct me too?

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

I am less interested (to determine the cause of NDEs) in reading the NDEs themselves (this is like reading 100 TBM testimonies to decide if the church is true), and more interested in reading some good scientific analysis.

Let me grub around. But I think that is a fascinating sentence to think about!

1. What is my interest?

Determine the cause?

Understand my fellow beings?

Get insights for my own life?

Prove my church is true?

Prove (for myself at least) death isn’t the end?

2. 100 TBM testimonies

I can just picture JMB reading 100 TBM testimonies. What would happen?

-You might get an insight or two (personally/spiritually speaking)

-You might draw some conclusions (both admirable and scary) about the LDS religion (sociologically or anthropologically speaking)

-You would NOT conclude the LDS Church is the One True church (I hope)

Likewise with the NDE (I hope)

-You might get an insight or two about new possibilities for “God” and “spirituality” and “you”

-You might draw some conclusions about people

-You would NOT (I hope) conclude that the NDE is the One True source.

Excellent, though. Most excellent. Now I need to grub up some research.

OK. Here’s one by Morse about pediatrics and the NDE http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4003364 But go to the Wikipedia article. It’s well footnoted. Good place to start if journals and peer review are your cup of tea.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

Quote:

Although it’s been 20 years since my heavenly voyage, I have never forgotten it. Nor have I, in the face of ridicule and disbelief, ever doubted its reality. Nothing that intense and life-changing could possibly have been a dream or hallucination. To the contrary, I consider the rest of my life to be a passing fantasy, a brief dream, that will end when I again awaken in the permanent presence of that giver of life and bliss.

Beverly Brodsky

I mean no offense or disrespect when I say this, but I categorically reject the argument “Nothing that intense and life-changing could possibly have been a dream or hallucination.”

I submit that these experiences have value, and that they can change lives. I agree with Tom that they could change your positive outlook of life and be very beneficial. But this does not make them a physical reality.

One question I have for Tom:

You mentioned that the NDEs you’d read had a similar theme in that they started with trauma. You said:

Tom Haws wrote:

1. Trigger

The overwhelmingly dominant NDE trigger is trauma, though there are numerous other less-common triggers.

Now that it has been shown that we can induce this in the laboratory, how does that change this assumption? What other implications does this knowledge give us?

[Anonymous]

Thanks Tom. Loved the story, especially this part:

Quote:

The next thing I knew I was floating above my body and watching it as people were giving me CPR. I heard a voice that said, “Why have you worried so much in your life?” I looked at my body again. The voice said, “What good is it now?”

Detachment! Even more important in the next life! 😆

I’m going to put on my typical skeptic hat:

His story of imaginary friend, seeing people, etc. sounds very, very, similar to stories by others who have experienced extreme abusive trauma as children, whether physical abuse, emotional abuse, or sexual abuse. These children often create a “parallel life” wherein they can access love and acceptance that they are not getting from parents, teachers, clergy, whatever. Another sub-conscious survival mechanism, imo.

The author did mention various moments of pretty abusive stuff, so…

I know, I know, there’s always some “other” explanation.

I am open to possibilities and I know there’s much more unexplained than explained, and I’m excited to discover it!

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

2. 100 TBM testimonies

I can just picture JMB reading 100 TBM testimonies. What would happen?

-You might get an insight or two (personally/spiritually speaking)

-You might draw some conclusions (both admirable and scary) about the LDS religion (sociologically or anthropologically speaking)

-You would NOT conclude the LDS Church is the One True church (I hope)

Yes, please understand Tom, I’m not saying that reading those experiences is not worthwhile. Indeed, over the course of my life I have surely listened to (and had my own) 1000’s of TBM testimonies. And I got to Fast and Testimony meeting each month and enjoy listening to personal stories. I’ve always said that personal stories are the most meaningful for me. I’m just saying that I can’t use it as proof (or even likelihood) that the church is true. Same goes for NDEs. I have enjoyed the one’s I read, but they aren’t proof as to the cause.

We’ve been talking about alien abductions a bit here too, and the comparison is obvious. Reading alien abduction stories will do nothing to convince me that people are really abducted by aliens.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

But this does not make them a physical reality.

They are, as I understand the terminology, not a physical reality. Pardon the limitations of language.

jmb275 wrote:

Now that it has been shown that we can induce this in the laboratory, how does that change this assumption? What other implications does this knowledge give us?

Induced transcendental experiences (such as “entheogenic” experiences) would not be classified as being under the Near Death Experience family, probably. But they of course, would fall under the family of transcendental experiences and would be of interest, I suppose, to near death researchers. In other words, there are of course many parallels. And someone like me might not be inclined to draw distinctions between one and the other other than the obvious circumstantial differences. I do need to confess, however, I have not read first hand ketamine stories. And only few entheogenic stories at all. And in this field, the raw data is the stories and the post-experience observations of others.

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

Okay, I’ll jump in as the resident “don’t know much about this topic”. 😳

I was watching something recently about a relatively new book on the phenomenon of people in extreme duress having a “visitor” help them through the duress. Most were mountain climbers on the verge of death, usually being “visited” by a deceased loved one who, ultimately, “helped” them find strength, courage, motivation to survive.

Having personally had pretty vivid “dreams” while under anesthesia, I tend towards the sub-conscious. I think the sub-conscious is an area of neurological study that is pretty far in the future, eg. ability to manipulate dreams from external sources.

There’s an evolutionary possibility too, in that the sub-conscious seemed to take over for these people in duress, indicating a survival mechanism wherein the sub-conscious can “push” the individual to do things that allows physical survival.

Sorry, by now someone is thinking, “YOU’RE AVOIDING THE OBVIOUS ANSWER: DIVINE INTERVENTION!!!”

I don’t think that at all. I think your analysis is pretty good. The main problem with assigning these types of issues to “divine intervention” is that it is not falsifiable. There’s no way to actually know, it’s just a guess, or a feeling, or an instinct. I recognize that that has value, but it’s hard to demonstrate. It is one thing to “believe” it is divine intervention due to the intense emotional experience involved, but it is another to claim it as fact. I think these experiences have value, indeed I assume there is an evolutionary reason for them, I just hesitate to put too much stock (outside of the spiritual, mythical realm) into anyone’s emotional experiences (even my own).

I maintain that these experiences are very important for me on a spiritual, emotional, physiological level, but that I need to maintain them as distinct from reality. I view religion as tool to help me spiritually, not to determine how I view reality.

Having said all of this, I am open to the possibility that I may just not have had the right spiritual/near-death/sub-conscious experience to convince me. I have had them, but maybe I am just faithless!! 😳

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

Bruce in Montana wrote:

So Tom,

You seem to have studied this enough to have a qualified opinion. How do you feel about NDE being physiological?

I recall reading somewhere the idea that these experiences were just the brain “shutting down”. What’s your take on it?

Bruce, I am interested in what Tom H. has to say on this, but I also have an opinion and would like to offer it up.

Clearly, the evidence from experimentation in teh physical brain is that there is a definite connection between physical stimuli in the brain, and the effects of many mystical or religious experiences. Not only physical, but also chemical.

To me, this is not a problem. I think God (however we define God) uses natural processes and such to do what He does. That we have found ways to ‘duplicate’ religious experience is truly wonderful and very interesting, even if the substance of the experience does not exactly fit the reality of public experience. As usual, it is not the reality of the discovery that is troubling, but the assumptions and biases (a priori thinking) on the part of everyone involved (including the subjects of study) that is troubling to me. I’m not blaming anyone for doing that, we all do.

No one in the sciences can do a $500,000 six-month study without justifying it. To do that, they much come to conclusions that ‘make sense’. And that’s the rub. What makes sense? No scientist can base a conclusion on “God did it”. It just can’t be done, if the scientist wants to remain credible.

IMO, when you deal with the human mind, there’s a lot going on and we understand about as much of it as a dog understands algebra. We’re improving, certainly. But just as historians must exclude the improbable, so too scientists cannot arrive at conclusions without reliable evidence. Limiting these experiences to a physiological cause ‘makes sense’.

But I don’t think we’ve gotten to the real, bottom-line answers yet.

HiJolly

Briliant HiJolly!! I certainly could agree with the possibility of that explanation (although as you alluded to, I can’t demonstrate it or repeat it). I also agree that we have barely begun to scratch the surface of understanding the brain, and particularly the sub-conscious.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

I have enjoyed the one’s I read, but they aren’t proof as to the cause.

We’ve been talking about alien abductions a bit here too, and the comparison is obvious. Reading alien abduction stories will do nothing to convince me that people are really abducted by aliens.

Exactly. There comes a point in life when spirituality, I think, is no longer about proof. I see that in you. And I see that in the rest of us. Maybe that’s all you have been expressing.

It’s not about proof. It’s about reality. Love your reality. Live your reality. Face your reality. Share your reality.

So, jmb, what’s real for you? (uhh oh. Yet another threadjack?)

I think the alien abduction area is fascinating as a control case. As you say, what does it imply? Here is a story from Betty Andreasson. It’s an interview between a researcher and her during a childhood regression (a whole other topic):

Quote:

Okay. Do you know why it is time to see the One? Why haven’t you asked questions?

They haven’t been there very often. Those little people haven’t been there very much for me to ask.

Yeah, but they are asking you to do a lot of things, shall we say.

I know. But, I’m in their place. I can’t do anything.

Okay. In a moment you’re going to see the One, right? We don’t want to waste the experience. We want to get the most out of it. So when you see the One, I want you to ask yourself: “What am I getting out of this? Why am I here? And, what will this mean to me later on in my life?” It’s like any big experience a person is allowed to have. Okay? I want you to progress to where the door is open and you are seeing the One.

Oh!

[At that very moment, an indescribable smile came over Betty’s face. The only adjective that the investigators could think of to describe it is rapturous. This expression of pure, unrestricted happiness remained on Betty’s face as the hypnotist continued to question her.]

You seem happy. Why are you so happy?

It’s just – ah, I just, I can’t tell you about it.

All right. I know you can’t tell me, but I want you to do a few things. I want you to ask yourself why you are being shown that which you are being shown. In other words, you weren’t given this trip just for a free ride, so to speak. They want you to see what you are seeing. Does that make sense?

Yes.

All right. Now that you’re there, ask yourself: “What am I getting out of this? Why am I here? What am I supposed to think about after I leave here?”

Oh, it matters not what I get from it.

What do you mean?

It’s – words cannot explain it. It’s wonderful. It’s for everybody. I just can’t tell you this.

You can’t? Okay, why can’t you?

For one thing, it’s too overwhelming and it is – it is indescribable. I just can’t tell you. Besides it’s just impossible for me to tell you.

All right. Are you capable, when looking around you, to tell yourself?

I see it.

Right. That which you can see, you have a grasp of even if you don’t understand it.

I understand it. I’m sorry. I’m just sorry. I wish I could share it with you.

Were you told not to share it with me?

It is like even if I was able to speak it, I wouldn’t be able to speak it. I can’t. I’m sorry.

Were you specifically told not to speak it?

Partly, yeah.

How was it expressed to you?

I can’t tell you those things. I’m sorry.

All right. Can we let the beings speak through you? Suppose you just relax, and I’ll put my hand on your shoulder and with each number you will go deeper and deeper. When I reach three, you will just relax and allow the beings to speak through you. One, two, three.

[Betty began speaking in a strange tongue.]

Okay, Betty, can you explain to me so that I could understand what you have just said?

[Betty begins crying] Father loves the world so very much.

Yes?

And so many reject him.

Uh huh, okay. You said a lot of words. Can you explain more of what you said?

They will be felt by those who believe and have faith. They will feel the love radiating from them.

Okay, where are you now?

I’m where there is light.

And what do you see?

I cannot tell you this.

Okay, that’s all right. Let me ask you. Do you feel much love, the same love, or any different degree of love now than you have before?

It’s a greater love.

Okay. When will I understand all of the words that the being said through you?

When you allow the Spirit to come upon you and you are filled with that love.

Do you understand all the words that you have said?

I understand them, but they will not come forth.

Okay, I’m trying to understand. I’m not trying to ask you to divulge anything, all right? You understand them, but you can’t express them?

They’re in my heart.

More like a feeling than a concept?

They’re in my heart, in my mind, in my body.

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

One similar (maybe?) area of study is that of the “spiritual” part of the brain. It is in the temporal lobe, and is measurable when stimulated. We can observe the action there under certain stimuli — meditation, prayer, fasting, etc.. And the description of the feeling has common traits by each person — euphoria, feeling of oneness with others and nature, timelessness, total absence of fear, etc.

A peer-reviewed study was published by researchers at Johns-Hopkins in 2006 testing the effects of psilocybin (a hallucinogenic drug found in mushrooms) on a large controlled group of people. Those that “used” it felt a euphoria that compared to their most powerful spiritual experiences previous in their lives. They also reported an increase of hope and faith in life, regardless of their “religious persuasion.” And it lasted for the next few years, at least, even though they didn’t continue to “use” anymore.

I have heard of this as well. There was recently a series at NPR exploring spirituality here. Andrew Newburg has done some very interesting work in this regard. He is not really religious or areligious but seeks to understand the phenomena.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

Induced transcendental experiences (such as “entheogenic” experiences) would not be classified as being under the Near Death Experience family, probably. But they of course, would fall under the family of transcendental experiences and would be of interest, I suppose, to near death researchers. In other words, there are of course many parallels.

I see. I can understand that.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

jmb275 wrote:

I have enjoyed the one’s I read, but they aren’t proof as to the cause.

We’ve been talking about alien abductions a bit here too, and the comparison is obvious. Reading alien abduction stories will do nothing to convince me that people are really abducted by aliens.

Exactly. There comes a point in life when spirituality, I think, is no longer about proof. I see that in you. And I see that in the rest of us. Maybe that’s all you have been expressing.

It’s not about proof. It’s about reality. Love your reality. Live your reality. Face your reality. Share your reality.

So, jmb, what’s real for you? (uhh oh. Yet another threadjack?)

Yes, in spirituality, it isn’t about proof. As I’ve said, I just keep spiritual things where they belong, and physical things where they belong. Where they tend to overlap (in my emotions, spiritual experiences, etc.) I tend to view them as subjective realities for my personal life, but don’t view them as evidence of a universal truth or physical reality for others.

So reality for me depends on what we’re talking about. Spiritual reality is a bit of an oxymoron for me because when I think of reality I think of it as the observable world, as a baseline for understanding. On top that reality is my subjective perception. It might be that we never know the true reality, but I think science has done a pretty good job of getting as close to it as we can. Once you hit subjective perception however, things get very messy very quickly. Language, emotion, bias, a priori knowledge, personality, experience, etc. etc. all get thrown into the mix, and we, as humans, are supposed to make it work in this context. A tricky proposition indeed! 😯 This is where love, and spirituality enter in and can help us. I strongly believe that I am a decent, loving individual in large part because of the religion I grew up in. Maybe I would have been anyway, but I think Mormonism played a role. In summary, I receive great benefit from spirituality in my life. I feel a void when it is not there. Doesn’t make it reality, just my personal perception. Hence, I choose to remain LDS to fill this void, and help me feel better.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

Tom Haws wrote:

Induced transcendental experiences (such as “entheogenic” experiences) would not be classified as being under the Near Death Experience family, probably. But they of course, would fall under the family of transcendental experiences and would be of interest, I suppose, to near death researchers. In other words, there are of course many parallels.

I see. I can understand that.

So I would think that inducing transcendental experiences in the lab might give us a clue that near death experiencers may be experiencing the secrets of the medicine men and shamans. In other words, I would guess that the fact you brought up would point to the singleness of the experience, or support the hypothesis that the experience is One (if I may take the liberty of capitalizing that word in this technical discussion).

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