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Valoel wrote:
*People* in the Church promote the “all or nothing” paradigm. Sure, it is a majority of the active and vocal people. I concede that. It isn’t all people though. I see many still that don’t follow that idea. The leadership does not march in lockstep. They disagree on lots of things. The “all or nothing” camp might be a majority. It doesn’t make them right though. The Church doesn’t belong to them. The Church is an illusion. They can’t lock it up in a box.
My intent in quoting Pres. Hinckley was that it isn’t just “some people” but it is the guy at the top! I realized he isn’t “The Church” but if you go looking for what the people in Church believe (or at least are being taught to believe), wouldn’t you consider the prophet’s conference addresses as one source?
I guess what I see (and I realize that others live in more “liberal” (for lack of a better word) wards) is that people in the Mormon Internet community are much more liberal and open than the people in my ward. On this (and other) boards people are very willing to say, “Believe any part of it you want and leave the rest.” But on Sunday, in my ward at least, I hear a very different message. In fact, on General Conference Sunday I hear a different message. And that message is “There is one way.”
Several conversations I had over the Thanksgiving weekend are still bugging me and I haven’t had time to really sort it out and write it up coherently, so I’ll just blather…
I came back from my in-laws in Idaho Falls thinking that forums like this aren’t very good for me because I get lulled into thinking that everyone is as open as you and others here are. Now, I happen to like you guys and gals. At the beginning it was like a breath of fresh air. But, now I’m more acclimatized to it and when I go to church or to my in-laws I get shocked at how closed minded they are.
In fact, one night after dinner with the in-laws, my wife — without anything being said by me — said, “I’m sorry for my family.”
And, I have a hard time dealing with some of the closed minded things they say and do. I keep thinking, “Ah, this is the perfect response for when my FIL says such-and-such.” But, when he actually says it, I can’t say it, so I just bite my tongue and burn inside.
I’m not expressing this well. I’ll have to think about it more.
Please don’t let my enthusiasm diminish the truth of your experience Mcarp. I don’t deny the examples you gave are common. Your frustration is real. The liberal (might as well use that word, it’s as good as any) Mormons you meet on the internet are definately more quiet and subdued. We are all in wards though. We are everywhere, just not as visible as the more vocal orthodox members. Hawkgrrrl says something often that I agree with: “The person with the greater knowledge has the greater responsibility.”
It isn’t our place to stop everyone in their tracks and correct them. I don’t even believe I am right, so I am not inclined to force my opinions on to other people. I am very likely to damage other peoples’ faith in the Church, or push them off the cliff into disillusionment. It is *not* my place to decide that path for other people.
I spend a lot of time agonizing over details, history, doctrine, and logic that most people just aren’t interested in pursuing. I can’t help myself. It isn’t exactly comfortable, if I have to admit that to myself. The people you are frustrated with are fine where they are. They will change. They might never change. Both are possible. 60% of all adults never go beyond the assumption that their faith tradition is correct and has true answers for all tough problems (the Fowler interviews in the “Library” here talk about this).
It is challenging to be at peace around people that you think are wrong (or they don’t understand).
Mcarp…totally get what you are saying and even when you live in less rich LDS areas your experience is typical. Doubters sit and think, its the LDS culture…not many people want to talk about such things it is too confronting….then you have many of the leaders that make out it is a weakness for doubting, and give you responses “just pray more and you will feel better”. You know I think you holding back from having any response to your FIL just goes to show that you are not a MEAN person! That is Christlike behaviour in my view. Our journeys are all so personal and it is our journey alone. Though it helps to share at times, we need to be careful as who wants to be the one that leads to another going through much of the grief we know!
Besides my dh not many people know how doubting I have become. I feel this urge to discuss things with my Mother but I will refrain and just give her info on a “needs to know basis” as I know that she will not get where I am out and only see what I am going through as a personal attack on her beliefs….I am not into doing that. At the end of the day she is happy living a faithful LDS life, and part of me hopes she never becomes doubting because at 74 years of age it would kill her!!!!!
Use the forums to keep your sanity. I am then just trying to live my life honestly. If someone at church wants to know how I feel I will explain but not in the middle of class or in a hallway etc.
YOu know part of this is ironic. When we discover the “good news” of the LDS church and become baptised we are encouraged oh so strongly to share it….sometimes I think many people of doubt feel this desire to share what they have learned too, as they dont want to have others they love being deceived as they perceive they have been by the church or prophets or whomever etc. Our instincts kick in though and we dont do this (well I feel most caring people avoid becoming a missionary of doubtful thinking)…maybe this is the real power of the Spirit? Spiritual knowledge etc is so emotional and personal and thus I think it should stay personal most of the time.
I want to know as many of the little details as I can, even though I really don’t care about them; I have a wonderful friend who doesn’t have any interest in even thinking about the details. An overall testimony is perfectly fine for him. I respect his lack of interest, and he respects my interest. We have a great friendship. I also had an interesting experience recently. Someone who holds a highly visible calling in my stake and is seen by everyone as a rock solid “TBM” (and who is, if that simply means absolutely dedicated to the Church) made the following statement in response to a discussion being held in the stake center chapel between stake leadership meetings:
Quote:“I really hate it when members say, ‘I know this is the only true church on the face of the earth.'”
He went on to say that he believes passionately in the Restoration of the Gospel and the Priesthood, but he is concerned that non-members and members alike will interpret that statement to mean that we believe there is no truth in other religions.
My point is that this was a very visible leader (who has had some astounding spiritual experiences in his life) saying something that others who might have heard it without the follow-up explanation would interpret as critical of the Church – while many of the non-leadership members who weren’t there would never guess he feels that way.
That is a long-winded way of saying that I have no idea how many of the people in my ward and stake are “absolutists” and how many are not, since those aren’t things we generally discuss as topics in and of themselves. I’m fine with that, since I don’t want to shake anyone who is happy in their own paradigm – but literally hundreds of similar experiences in my life make me believe fewer members are absolutists than perhaps most members assume.
Valoel wrote:We are all in wards though. We are everywhere, just not as visible as the more vocal orthodox members.
My wife and I drove (without the kids) from Boise to SLC last night and talked a lot about this. She said she wondered how many other people in our ward are thinking these same things. I know of at least two or three who don’t ever come that are experiencing issues with doctrine, but among those that are there (most) every Sunday I really don’t know.
So, if we all just sit there silently we never find each other. To be honest, until I found NOM and FLAK earlier this year, I thought maybe I was the only one! (The only one who doesn’t believe the doctrine, but I’m still at church every Sunday and I hold callings, etc.) I kind of wish there were some way to find like-minded people. My wife, for instance, would really like to find someone who she could talk to about my disaffection. But, she’s afraid to tell anyone because they’ll “freak out.” That’s certainly true for our bishop, and most of the people in our ward — at least it seems so on the surface. But, hey, unless I say something maybe everyone else is thinking the same thing about me.
Valoel, don’t interpret my personal frustration (I’m mostly just venting here because I don’t have IRL friends to talk to about it) as attacking you. (As SallyM says, I’m not really a mean person.
Quote:It isn’t our place to stop everyone in their tracks and correct them. I don’t even believe I am right, so I am not inclined to force my opinions on to other people. I am very likely to damage other peoples’ faith in the Church, or push them off the cliff into disillusionment. It is *not* my place to decide that path for other people
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I agree with this, and in fact this is one of the biggest questions I have right now. How MUCH to let on to others about my doubts, experiences, and newly-forming paradigms? On the one hand, I don’t want to go on “pretending” to be someone I’m not: it feels disingenuous, and I think it damages the community. For example, it perpetuates stereotypes about who is and isn’t doubting (i.e. people trying to justify sin)…it adds to this “all or nothing” paradigm that actually LEADS many of us astray once we find out about difficult doctrinal/historical issues…and it makes it tough to form a support system if you can’t find people who relate to your situation.
On the other hand, this isn’t a path I would wish upon anyone else, because it’s very painful at times. And even when I meet LDS who I feel would be understanding, I hesitate to mention my own struggles, because I’d hate to be the “cause” of someone losing faith, or even taking the approach I have. I’m just not sure enough about anything, including (maybe especially?) my own perspective, to want to lead anyone else down this road.
One more thought about this topic in general. Does anyone else feel a sense of unease or even guilt upon abandoning (or considering abandoning) the “all or nothing” paradigm? When I consider it, it makes me feel so happy and free to think that I can follow my heart by accepting what I perceive to be good and rejecting what I perceive to be bad. On the other hand, there’s this nagging little voice in the back of my head that says, “Oh, no you don’t! You’re CHEATING!”
And that makes me very, very nervous.
katielangston wrote:One more thought about this topic in general. Does anyone else feel a sense of unease or even guilt upon abandoning (or considering abandoning) the “all or nothing” paradigm?
When I consider it, it makes me feel so happy and free to think that I can follow my heart by accepting what I perceive to be good and rejecting what I perceive to be bad. On the other hand, there’s this nagging little voice in the back of my head that says, “Oh, no you don’t! You’re CHEATING!”
Once the spell was broken, I felt like I finally could see clearly. I still work on keeping an open mind though. I try to tell myself “You are probably still wrong.” I want to allow myself to change, which could include the possibility of believing some things again that I don’t now. It would not be for the same reasons anymore though.
Maybe my wife is my guilty conscience for me
katielangston wrote:Quote:It isn’t our place to stop everyone in their tracks and correct them. I don’t even believe I am right, so I am not inclined to force my opinions on to other people. I am very likely to damage other peoples’ faith in the Church, or push them off the cliff into disillusionment. It is *not* my place to decide that path for other people
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I agree with this, and in fact this is one of the biggest questions I have right now. How MUCH to let on to others about my doubts, experiences, and newly-forming paradigms? On the one hand, I don’t want to go on “pretending” to be someone I’m not: it feels disingenuous, and I think it damages the community. For example, it perpetuates stereotypes about who is and isn’t doubting (i.e. people trying to justify sin)…it adds to this “all or nothing” paradigm that actually LEADS many of us astray once we find out about difficult doctrinal/historical issues…and it makes it tough to form a support system if you can’t find people who relate to your situation.
That sums it up pretty well for me, too.
I was in Utah this weekend and visited with some friends that just moved to Lehi from San Jose, CA. It is a mind-blowing experience for them! (They are both California natives and have never lived in Utah before.)
One thing we discussed was that it isn’t that someone holds an opinion that bothers us. It is the fact that they won’t allow for anyone else to hold a different opinion. I don’t want to “correct” people and I’m not trying to “destroy their testimony.” I just want them to realize that maybe other people have differing opinions that might be just as valid as their own.
katielangston wrote:I don’t want to go on “pretending” to be someone I’m not: it feels disingenuous, and I think it damages the community. For example, it perpetuates stereotypes about who is and isn’t doubting (i.e. people trying to justify sin)…it adds to this “all or nothing” paradigm that actually LEADS many of us astray once we find out about difficult doctrinal/historical issues…and it makes it tough to form a support system if you can’t find people who relate to your situation.
I relate strongly to this. I believe it does damage the community, and I like that way of expressing it. It’s all a balancing act, I guess. Thanks.
I totally agree with KM and Katie about the need to be genuine and authentic at church. I don’t see why we shouldn’t be honest, but respectful, in speaking up about things. Here are some examples: – “facts” that aren’t right
– opinions we don’t share
I also think a lot of people on this kind of journey are unsure how to express “testimony” when they don’t feel they “know.” Even if you’ve exited the tunnel of doubt and are now in a re-believing on different terms, using the word “know” probably doesn’t feel right. I like the following alternatives:
– “I’m grateful for . . .”
– “I hope that . . .”
– “I feel . . . “
– “I appreciate the example of . . .”
These things feel more authentic to me, for me to say.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I also think a lot of people on this kind of journey are unsure how to express “testimony” when they don’t feel they “know.”
Or when the things they “know” are not in sync with the “all or nothing” package of current LDS thought. I hope I am not nurturing foolish binary thinking here, but uncertainty isn’t a key characteristic of my post-conversion perspective. In fact, I probably have less uncertainty now than before. Instead, what I have is nuance and generosity of interpretation.
So for me, the question (perhaps for another thread) is not how to muster up a testimony, but how to share the one burning within me without getting burned at the stake.
KM
mcarp wrote:It isn’t that someone holds an opinion that bothers us. It is the fact that they won’t allow for anyone else to hold a different opinion.
Bigotry: (Dictionary.com)
1. The state of mind of a bigot; obstinate and unreasoning attachment of one’s own belief and opinions, with narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them.
Joseph Smithsaid: “Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth…” (2007 Teachings of Joseph Smith RS/P manual p.264) I love this quote. If “Mormonism” is teaching anything other than the unfettered truth then it has strayed from its purpose into false doctrine. I don’t feel I need to correct the church, but as for me and my house – we will embrace the truth. This is what the church means to me, and why the “all or nothing” paradigm does not fit within my (growing) understanding of “true” Mormonism.
Orson wrote:I don’t feel I need to correct the church….
This is interesting. I’d like to hear more about it.
KM
kupord maizzed wrote:Orson wrote:I don’t feel I need to correct the church….
This is interesting. I’d like to hear more about it.
KM
I think the basis lies in realizing that human truth will always be at least partially subjective. If it is true to me, I must live by it – that doesn’t mean it will be as equally true to someone else. If I try to impose my particular views on the world then I become a bigot. To me, maturity is knowing what you don’t know, and realizing you may not know what you think you know – but nevertheless being true to what you do “know” or what seems “most true” to you at any given time. (Maturity is also becoming comfortable with paradox.) I believe in love, and I don’t feel like I’m growing in love if I need to correct someone else’s course against their will. If they’re open to suggestion then we can both share ideas with each other, that is a different situation entirely.
My thoughts for today at least…
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