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Last night I was having a discussion with my son who is preparing to serve a mission. He is a very black and white thinker, and very intelligent. We were actually talking about the BoM and the Bible and how there are things in one but not the other. He does not know my true feelings/thoughts about the BoM. (I believe it’s a good book and can bring people closer to God but that it is not what it is claimed to be.) At any rate, the topic of the seriousness of sexual sin came up and I pointed out that this is only found in one place in those two books. I did not say that I use that as a measure of “gospel truth” (if something is only in one place in one book of scripture I hold it to be like a GA who says something that other GAs are not saying – his own opinion). He asserted that it was very clear that sexual sin is second only to murder (and denying the Holy Ghost) in seriousness after I asserted that perhaps it’s only humans that rank sin and that God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance – be that stealing a piece of gum or murder. (That is too gray for him.) Long story short (I know I already blew that), I decided to reread Alma 39:5 because I hadn’t in a long time. In doing so something completely different jumped out at me: I’m not sure Alma was talking about sexual sin at all other than mentioning it in passing. Backing up to verse 1, Alma is comparing Corianton to his brothers to his face (that does not generally go over well in my family and is a pretty surefire way to shut down one of the kids). In verse 2 Alma says:
Quote:Now this is what I have against thee; thou didst go on unto boasting in thy strength and thy wisdom.
OK, no sex there. The he continues in verse 3 (emphasis added):
Quote:And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me;
for thou didst forsake the ministry,and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel
So, Corianton chased after Isabel after leaving the ministry (note he does not assert he had sex with her, only that he chased after her, or in an even more literal interpretation that he went after she did). In verse 4 Alma asserts that Isabel was a heart stealer, but again he says:
Quote:Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.
Then comes the famous verse 5:
Quote:Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?
Alma goes on to describe the sin against the Holy Ghost (vaguely) and murder, of which he says it is not easy to gain forgiveness (but possible, apparently). He then tells Corianton that he (Alma) would that Corinaton had not been guilty of so great a crime.What struck me was that perhaps Alma wasn’t talking about sexual sin (he never says Corinaton “knew” any harlot, only that he lusted) but he did assert that Corianton forsook his ministry, and a bit later that because of his behavior the Lamanites wouldn’t believe him.
So was Corianton’s sin really abandoning his ministry? Is that the greatest sin after murder? If so, is it because the Lamanites didn’t receive the gospel because he forsook his ministry?
(Disclaimer, I actually do believe God can’t look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, but I also believe in repentance, the atonement, mercy, and grace.)
The alternate argument that I hear the most is that Corianton’s greatest sin was leading the Zoramites astray due to his poor example while in a position of influence. That accusation isn’t leveled until verse 11 though. Sexual sin being second only to murder
isthe more ingrained teaching. Do yourself a favor and don’t reread Miracle of Forgiveness. 
In ranking sin I might be tempted to think of a play on one of Jesus’ teachings. Master, which is the greatest sin of them all?
Jesus said unto him, Hating the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the worst sin.
And the sin second only to the first is like unto it, Hating thy neighbor (as thyself? self abuse, so there you go!
On these two hang all sin.
It’s hard for us to not rank things. Because we don’t know how to let go of some things unless we do. We all sin…but what are the really
badsins? If we can make a list, and see that others do those, then maybe we feel better about our sins. We like Joseph Smith’s vision of different degrees of glory, so heaven is a little more ranked and segregated. We have a need to know which blessings are the most important blessings, which sins are the worst, and where we are headed to in the eternities as our place.
To me, the story of the woman caught in adultery is more about how poorly people handle things when they find out the sins of others, and less about the sin itself.
nibbler wrote:Do yourself a favor and don’t reread Miracle of Forgiveness.
No worries, I threw that book out long ago. Our bishop has a couple copies in his office – I cringe to think he recommends it (and I’m not sure he does, they were there with the prior bishop).
Heber13 wrote:It’s hard for us to not rank things. Because we don’t know how to let go of some things unless we do.
We all sin…but what are the really bad sins? If we can make a list, and see that others do those, then maybe we feel better about our sins.
We like Joseph Smith’s vision of different degrees of glory, so heaven is a little more ranked and segregated. We have a need to know which blessings are the most important blessings, which sins are the worst, and where we are headed to in the eternities as our place.
I think that’s part of my point, Heber –
werank things, I’m not so sure God does because He said He is no respecter of persons. The questioning/doubting part of me wonders about the three degrees of glory and all that jazz. I can buy into the many mansions idea, I’m not so sure about the rest. I think we completely misinterpret the counsel mainly because Alma mentions the Harlot and we then assume he is only talking about that. We end up ignoring the rest of it. Most seems to be about how Corianton failed to serve as a missionary, at least to me. Alma said earlier to Helaman in Chapter 36:14
Quote:“Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction;
It is also mentioned in Mosiah 27 about how Alma encouraged others to follow after his manner of iniquities.
Alma explains fully what the problem is. Going from versus 3 on (after Alma chastised Corianton for boasting in his own strength and wisdom):
Quote:“3: And that is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which is grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.
4: Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.
5: Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?
6: For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had a place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.
7: And now, my son, I would to God that ye had not been guilty of so great a crime…good.
8: But behold…last day.
9: Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins…these things.
10:
11: Suffer not yourself to be led away by any vain or foolish thing; suffer not the devil to lead away your heart again after those wicked harlots. Behold, O my son, how great iniquity ye brought upon the Zoramites; for when they saw your conduct they would not believe in my words.
12: And now the Spirit of the Lord doth say unto me: Command thy children to do good, lest they lead away the hearts of many people to destruction; therefore I command you, my son, in the fear of God, that ye refrain from your iniquities;
13: That ye turn to the Lord with all your mind, might, and strength; that you lead away the hearts of no more to do wickedly; but rather return unto them, and acknowledge your faults and that wrong which ye have done.
15: And now, my son, I would say somewhat unto you…his people.
16: And now, my son, this was the ministry unto which ye were called, to declare these glad tidings unto this people, to prepare their minds; or rather that salvation might come unto them, that they may prepare the minds of their children to hear the word at the time of his coming.”
In chapter 41 verse 9, and verse 14, Alma says:
Quote:“9: And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin.
14: Therefor, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually;…you again.”
Alma finishes speaking counsel in verse 30 of chapter 42.
Yes, Russdm, I think it is very much like the misperception that Mary Magdalene was a harlot because a harlot is mentioned. I did go back and read starting at chapter 38, and seeing the bigger picture of Alma’s counsel to Corianton is as you point out – mostly about the bad example he set. Again, I would point out that attempting to counsel your son in the way Alma does will probably not have the best results.
That passage is a great example of taking a verse completely out of context and building a message that simply isn’t there. The following is basically what you said, but I will share it anyway:
“Sexual Sins Are NOT Next to Murder”( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2011/06/sexual-sins-are-not-next-to-murder.html The comment thread is interesting.
DarkJedi wrote:I think that’s part of my point, Heber –
werank things, I’m not so sure God does because He said He is no respecter of persons. The questioning/doubting part of me wonders about the three degrees of glory and all that jazz. I can buy into the many mansions idea, I’m not so sure about the rest.
I agree. I am backing off of ranking more and more. That doesn’t mean I don’t think there are good and bad, and situations where people should be separated (think of criminals going to jail to keep the peace)…but 3 kingdoms may be a blip or only a section of heaven, not the entire explanation of the vast eternal order of an ominpotent never ending God and his children.I think BOM ranks Nephites and Lamanites. That is OK for a certain story or group, but when the early saints use that to create doctrines about native americans, and then similar thinking about blacks and the priesthood…it shows how things get off track by humans with limited understanding start to try to fit things into certainty and into little boxes…and it never works.
I prefer differences and personal preferences, but respect for all members of the orchestra.
Am I going spiritually deaf? Because a passage like this makes no sense to me anymore. Boasting and consorting and leading people away from the church are not good, of course. But what’s next to murder is attempted murder, assault, and rape. Regardless of which I pick – sexual sin or his other sins – I’m left totally unmoved by the comparison to murder. I agree, Ann. And I think it is more responsible to talk about sex with our children in more healthy ways than to try to scare the bejeezus out of them and back it up with scripture…which as DJ points out…isn’t even what the scriptures say. It is just 1820 interpretations of the bible, not what they actually say. Let’s assume historicity for just a moment and look at what Alma said. Essentially, he felt he had killed people’s faith and spirits during his Dark Sith days – committing spiritual murder, in his own words. He then saw his son going down that same path, after the effects within himself had almost killed him.
Given what we have of his own story, I can understand him framing the totality of what he saw his son do as “next to murder”. I might or might not see it that same way, but I absolutely can understand that perspective.
Again, assuming historicity, I also can imagine him looking at us now and saying:
Quote:WTH?!?! That’s how you are reading my words?!
Old-Timer wrote:Let’s assume historicity for just a moment and look at what Alma said.
Essentially, he felt he had killed people’s faith and spirits during his Dark Sith days – committing spiritual murder, in his own words. He then saw his son going down that same path, after the effects within himself had almost killed him.
Given what we have of his own story, I can understand him framing the totality of what he saw his son do as “next to murder”. I might or might not see it that same way, but I absolutely can understand that perspective.
Again, assuming historicity, I also can imagine him looking at us now and saying:
Quote:WTH?!?! That’s how you are reading my words?!
I do see what you’re saying and I was probably too brusk earlier.This hits home for me because of a sister I visit taught before they became completely inactive. I was talking with her about why she was backing away. Her high school age son and his girlfriend got carried away and had had sex. He was out driving afterwards, distraught, and on the verge of committing suicide. Instead he went home and told his parents, and they all proceeded to deal with it. But that was the end for her church-wise. I don’t know if she didn’t have the tools to temper and counteract the message the kids were getting at church, so she just decided to pull the plug.
But I totally understand that that’s not a take anyone here is promoting.
Quote:He was out driving afterwards, distraught, and on the verge of committing suicide. Instead he went home and told his parents, and they all proceeded to deal with it. But that was the end for her church-wise.
I think his anxiety is prevalent today much more than we know. I think the fear of misuse or whatever wording you wish to choose has created something almost too intense for words. I can’t tell you how many married women I have talked to who on their wedding night/honeymoon were overcome with fear. This over intense presentation creates a whiplash effect. Yes, they are married and sex is legal, but it has been so taboo-ed and so “sin next to murdered” that when it’s allowed there is misery of another sort.
If an eternity exists, I imagine, much like Ray pointed out, we are going to be spending a lot of time with lots of ‘splainin’ to do.
Quote:Mom3 wrote: This over intense presentation creates a whiplash effect. Yes, they are married and sex is legal, but it has been so taboo-ed and so “sin next to murdered” that when it’s allowed there is misery of another sort.
Mom3, I keep having people say that LDS women struggle with sexuality, but I haven’t met those women. My friends all talk about good lingerie and what hotel bed they want to try out next. My closest peeps all seem to be very happily married. It makes their kids uncomfortable to know their parents shower together .. But that is a healthy discomfort.
I have wondered if we talk as a culture so much about frigid women that it becomes the expectation. As an organization, maybe we just need to talk more about just how much fun sex can be.
My next RS lesson, I’ll find a way to work that in …
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