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Tithing is tithing; the end receiver can be different, but that doesn’t mean you aren’t “tithing” your income. Having said that, not paying it to the Church as “tithing” but paying 10% to Fast Offerings is not selfless;
it’s not classically selfish, but it is doing it “my way”. There is an edge of “I’m right, and you’re wrong” in that decision, but I personally wouldn’t argue against doing it – if you don’t feel right about paying it as “traditional” tithing.It just isn’t paying tithing in the eyes of the Church, since the Church sees tithing as the funds that operate the Church’s religious, non-profit endeavors. It’s paying an extremely generous Fast Offering – so it’s helping people while not helping “The Church” as an organization. There is a difference, and I know I’m being a bit picky making the distinction – but it is an important distinction, imo.
SilentDawning wrote:There are times when I feel we are there to serve the organization at the expense of what is good and right for us personally as well, which contributes to this idea.
I’m sure you will think it’s a dangerous place to be — traditional believers would definitely say “Yes” to that statement. Others will call me apostate. The good news is that I’m in flux and subject to change at any time, and have no commitment to my current ideas for the long-term. I’m alone and unstable in that regard.
I like the way you think, SD. I share many of the same thoughts you do.
Old-Timer wrote:I know I’m being a bit picky making the distinction – but it is an important distinction, imo.
I think it is a good distinction to point out, Ray. It is a realistic thing. It may or may not be important to every individual, as individuals vary with what they need from the church…but the distinction you make is clear and valid.
Perhaps there is also a distinction one can make between being punished from the Church, and punished from God. They are not always necessarily the same. What does the group think?Yup. Pretty much says it for me.
SilentDawning wrote:But it’s not the way it’s supposed to work, is it? Shouldn’t you be happier wearing yourself out like a shoe, in service as Spencer W. Kimball said?
This triggered at thought in my mind. Yes. Perhaps this can be uplifting and enlightening for some people, to literally wear themselves out or give their life in service. I thought of Mother Teresa. It is possible for someone to be happier losing their self in service. Hmmmm, I also thought of the character Robert Deniro plays in the movie “The Mission.” (one of my favorites) Where as part of his deep spiritual penance and personal salvation freeing himself for from the guilt of killing his brother in anger when he was a hard-fighting and hot-headed mercenary, he gives his life and pride to charity as a monk in the frontiers of South America defending the weak. I know that’s a fictional story, but it has that powerful element of application in the more mundane experiences of real people.
Just some thoughts…
I agree though, it isn’t doing someone good if it just wears someone out to the point of despondence and giving up.
Heber13 wrote:SilentDawning wrote:I’m not suggesting we should care where our money goes to (just throw it to any charity, even if they use it unwisely), but I am saying that if the church shows integrity to regularly audit and make clear the use of tithing funds and fast offering funds, and that we are expected to pay 10% to tithing for “the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth”, and then pay additional offerings to the poor in fast offerings … then there is some virtue to abiding those two laws.
Rightly, or perhaps wrongly, I’m not sure there is integrity shown about the use of funds. I’m not accusing anyone of dishonesty, nor am I saying there is dishonesty, but the audits are interal audits, and there is no transparency. While I see your other points (that going around the system has a certain amount of Fooey on You in it -or at least, may be perceived that way), I’m not sure the argument that it’s all audited and open about the use of funds is a valid one for my counterpoint. I reserve judgement on that because we simply don’t have any data to go on. And the culture of the Church is such that you shouldn’t ask or care about it — once you’ve given, you’ve done your part and ask no further questions.
Had to say that as it occurred to me earlier when I read it, and came to me again after I read this a second time. And again, I’m not accusing anyone of dishonesty, simply saying there is no data or evidence to make that conclusion or any other conclusion for that matter.
Hi SD, (Please excuse the meandering course of this post. It may not be well written, but it is from the heart.)
Quote:Is this direct application of the scripture that says “If you are righteous you will prosper in the land”?….the flipside being “If you are not righteous, you will not prosper?” Am I being punished?
This post of yours has had me thinking for a while. It is integral to my own crisis catalyst.
This seems to be related to the “just world hypothesis” wherein people get what they deserve.
The second part is related but different. I forget what it was called but it was about thinking that you could control (or at least influence) the outcome.
In the depths of my crisis I was googling these concepts and I ran across some information about coping/healing after being raped. The information said that sometimes well meaning people can imply that the rape victim could have avoided being raped if she had done something differently. It warned that if the rape victim is encouraged to find a reason for her rape then she will likely find one – even if she has to fabricate it. To help a victim towards the path of healing, it is important to let them know that they didn’t get what they deserved and neither did they have control in the outcome (IOW the rape still could have occurred if she was following the buddy system, or had made a left turn instead of a right, or had been sober, or had triple checked her locks, or had a can of mace, or had screamed more, or fought back – and on and on)
I think of the poem about “the best laid plans of mice and men” coming to naught due to random chance or events outside of the individual’s knowledge or ability to control.
Perhaps this has caused me to swing too far in the other direction. Just because plans can be invalidated at any moment by any cosmic whim, does not mean that we should not make any.
I was recently talking to a follower of Wicca that is helping prison inmates through the concept of Karma. I completely support her efforts and hope that she is able to do good in the lives of others. Certainly it would be a good thing for people to get motivated to do more good in the world. But if Karma says that you eventually get what you deserve then good things should happen to good people and vice versa, then that is not what I am observing. Perhaps the justice is merely delayed, but I don’t think so.
What do I do with all this? I try really hard not to judge others as I do not know what their circumstances are. I know that, even as I have had undeserved trials, some others have had more. Some seem to react so gracefully and stalwartly to their trials while others are sent reeling. What is the distinguishing element? Is it choice? We who hold free agency as a central tenant of our faith too often think it so.
I also try to love those around me today with an awareness that they may not be there tomorrow.
For me it came down to God. Didn’t he love me for all the righteous stuff I did? Why didn’t he intervene to avert disaster? Doesn’t God bless those that are righteous? Doesn’t God bless those that He loves? Am I really righteous? Does He really love me?
In my journey, I have had to separate the 3 things (righteousness, God’s love, and blessings). I have had a spiritual confirmation (although that term isn’t perfect, it fits well enough) that God loves me, really loves me. His love is not dependent on my actions. He sorrows for my pain and the pain I may bring to others but he will not love me more or less for it. Neither will he alter the events of my life as a manifestation of his love. I remain open to the possibility that divine intervention may occur, but it seems to happen with such rarity as to be a bad indicator of God’s love for me or my personal righteousness or any combination thereof. This does require me to tune out various scriptures that tend to link the three (righteousness, God’s love, and blessings), but I have come to a point where I am comfortable with that.
What has been important for me is that I feel His love and I trust that His love is constant even when I can’t feel it. I feel that Heavenly Father has this same love for you SD, warts and all!
Nice post, Roy. Thanks for sharing. Perhaps there are some things within our control, and those things can teach us by applying causation to the events. There are many things we hope for control to provide us a sense of security or reduced stress, but that can lead to CogDis if we mistake the amount of control that actually exists. The scriptures are complete with examples of bad things happening to good people, yet there is an interesting emphasis on “live right and prosper” teachings.
I believe peace comes when we let go of attachment or assigning cause or blame, and just be present to say that what has happened does now give me a choice to act today, and I hope for wisdom that the choice I make will lead to good results tomorrow. Tomorrow I will repeat the process.
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