Am I crazy for wanting to join the Church?

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

I remember visiting my parents’ ward where I grew up. An old friend was recently married to a young woman that was from a country in the old soviet bloc. She had been baptized and was asked to tell her conversion story in sacrament meeting. She described it as somewhat of an ultimatum. My friend loved her but would only marry her if she converted. Although the primary motivation was love, this would also be a path to citizenship and she could stay in the US. She called her mom (back in the home country) for advice and her mom told her to go ahead – that one church is largely as good as another.

I was thoroughly amused by her candor and wondered if the bishopric knew what they were getting into when they asked her to share her conversion story.

Roy…

Thanks for the references to the talk and interview.

I wonder how this lady got past the “yes” or “no” missionary questions on the baptismal interview?

[Anonymous]

Janes now wrote:

You are not crazy! I’m having a faith crisis and I just moved to a new city. My shelf fell about 3 months after I moved here. At this point, my ” friends” in this unfamiliar place are the members of the church. They have really helped me out, gave me some good advices around here for a newcomer and made me feel like Im not as alone as I would have been without them. That is the good of the church. I still need to figure out what I believe though. I don’t think it is a bad thing to want to be a part of something good.

Thanks Jane! Although I’ve been in my current city for about 5 years, I’ve been pretty much a loner, except for my friends at the LDS church, and those were only made recently. So I too am very grateful for the friendships I’ve made there. And I too need to figure out what I believe…if that ever happens again. Maybe it’s a sad commentary on my social skills, but it seems that the only place I know I fit and where I know how to make friends is at church — because of being former clergy. The LDS Church “fits” in that regard…and in that respect, I haven’t found a more welcoming group of people anywhere….Even if you DO come to church for over a month wearing a colored polo shirt!

[Anonymous]

Mormonguy wrote:

How did you get past the mental gymnastics?

Well, number one was to be honest with my family, close friends, Bishop, and EQP. I don’t get up and announce anything in church, and I don’t discuss it with anyone that doesn’t need to know, but I don’t hide it either… that’s the hypocrisy I’m trying to avoid.

Second, Relatedly, I don’t take assignments that compromise who I am and what I believe. I happily taught in primary when the topic was the NT, but asked to be released as we entered a book of mormon year. Same thing in Gospel Doctrine. Now that I’m a full-fledged Atheist, I wouldn’t take any teaching position where doctrine is the primary topic. Scouting was OK. Bottom line is not putting myself in a position where I couldn’t be true to myself.

Third, I act as a guest. I am there for the benefit of myself and my family. But I don’t give my testimony, pray, expound on doctrinal questions in class. I stay out of their way and let them worship according to their belief and I do everything I can not to be disruptive, disrespectful, or contrary.

Finally, I feel one thing that has really helped me is to avoid drawing distinctions between myself and other members of the church. I don’t believe what they believe. It no longer matters to me. I use the Church as a framework for my own brand of spirituality. As an Atheist, I believe there is no God, but there is still value in quiet reflection, in pondering “spiritual” commitments, in the familiar rituals of the Church. If the guy next to me believes that Noah really built a boat and had two of every kind of animal, including all 62 species of deer and 91 of antelope, then fine. I could let my blood pressure rise, as I once did, but at this point, it doesn’t matter. Quite the opposite, I applaud him for believing in something greater, and I am, in a sense, jealous that he can. So, I celebrate the spirituality in others, rather than analyzing, characterizing, and fretting over it. I don’t think of myself as smarter or more evolved, and I don’t think of him as simple-minded, delusional, or duped. We just have different things we believe, and I’m at peace with that.

[Anonymous]

On Own Now wrote:

Well, number one was to be honest with my family, close friends, Bishop, and EQP.

Wow! Congrats on that. I think if I told my Bishop what I really believe, he would never allow me to join the Church. Maybe the experience is different once you’re already “in”? Do you feel you have a “progressive” Bishop or EQP?

On Own Now wrote:

I don’t give my testimony, pray, expound on doctrinal questions in class. I stay out of their way and let them worship according to their belief and I do everything I can not to be disruptive, disrespectful, or contrary.

I can see how one can avoid the testimony or expounding on doctrine, but how do you avoid being called on for prayer? And what do you say if they DO call on you?

On Own Now wrote:

If the guy next to me believes that Noah really built a boat and had two of every kind of animal, including all 62 species of deer and 91 of antelope, then fine. I could let my blood pressure rise, as I once did, but at this point, it doesn’t matter. Quite the opposite, I applaud him for believing in something greater, and I am, in a sense, jealous that he can. So, I celebrate the spirituality in others, rather than analyzing, characterizing, and fretting over it. I don’t think of myself as smarter or more evolved, and I don’t think of him as simple-minded, delusional, or duped. We just have different things we believe, and I’m at peace with that.

I agree TOTALLY! I just hope the rest of the ward is ok with it in reverse, in my case

[Anonymous]

OnOwnNow- I hope someday to find the harmony you have with life and the church. Thank you for that beautiful written example of your practice and heart.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I think if I told my Bishop what I really believe, he would never allow me to join the Church.

Then don’t tell him. (See below for my own reason why I say that.)

Quote:

Maybe the experience is different once you’re already “in”?

Yeah, in that regard we are easier on “our own” than on “outsiders”.

For example, we require someone to live the Word of Wisdom to be baptized, but we don’t excommunicate a current member who doesn’t do so. I don’t like the double standard, but I don’t want it to be resolved by excommunicating members. I would love it if people could be baptized with the intent to quit smoking or drinking or whatever in the future.

Seriously, though, there is no reason to share your specifics with anyone who might not understand. As long as you aren’t violating standards that would get you excommunicated as a member, don’t sweat it.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ray!

That’s really helpful.

So far, I’ve gotten a lot of great advice here. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

Do whatever makes you happy! Best of luck.

[Anonymous]

AngryMormon wrote:

Do whatever makes you happy! Best of luck.

Thanks! I will.

Once the FP gives its Holy Okey Dokey, I think I’ll take a dip

[Anonymous]

I am coming late to the discussion so I am mostly responding to earlier comments. I agree that you should allow yourself to be comfortable doing what you feel is best for you in your life – no matter if you think your actions may or may not fit into others’ definitions.

I’m always a little confused by the “if the church isn’t true” statements. I think we often forget that generally implies a very narrow definition of “‘true” or it makes about as much sense as the wisdom of a ham sandwich. Maybe we clarify “if it is God’s one and only authorized church”… well all I can speak for is me and my life, and for me it IS the only church that can have any meaning in my life when taken in the context of my family, friends, and my life as a whole. Does that mean some particular historical account is factual? Should it? Should my present actions and interpersonal togetherness be so dependent on what someone did or didn’t do, or say, or see so long ago? The “truth” of the church as it applies to my life is dependent on my ability to apply it in a productive way to the illustration of my story, …nothing else makes sense to me.

To move forward I need to accept the principle of continuing revelation in its entirety, God’s thoughts are not my thoughts, there are many things that God would reveal to me if I were willing to accept it — any maybe sometimes even if I’m not. What I thought I knew may not be so, that does not mean God didn’t know.

[Anonymous]

Orson:

I agree that we use “true” in different senses and it is also correct that the way most (many?) people in the Church use “true”, they mean “propositionally true”. I tend to take it generally to mean as you appear to: true FOR ME, given my circumstances. However, I don’t think we can totally discount the importance of “true” in the propositional sense.

If the Church is “true” in that sense, it simply would mean that the teachings of the Church “correspond with reality” — they reflect the correct idea of the way the world really works. When we’re discussing eternity (as we always do in religious matters explicitly or not) it would be extremely helpful if we’re discussing something “true” in that sense. Who wants to go into eternity believing something “false”? That could be dangerous (hell).

For me, at this point in my life, I really don’t believe that there is anything beyond death, so it doesn’t matter if the Church is “true” in that sense. For many, that is ALL that would matter, and I respect that without endorsing that version of “true”.

[Anonymous]

I agree with most of what everyone else has said. I would also explore the idea of what’s true and what’s not. For example, to me:

– the gospel is true. The things Christ taught improve me and my life. I also tend to think they originated in Buddhism and are sometimes mis-reported in the Bible. And I certainly disagree with how some people interpret things he said.

– the church community is “true” – it tries to support people to live the gospel. But the church culture is partly contrary to the gospel, focused on outward appearance, judging others, kowtowing to authority – things Jesus (and Buddha) didn’t do and didn’t teach.

– church doctrine is both true and sometimes false. Doctrine just means teachings. They change over time. The truest part to me is when we focus on personal revelation and the need to seek God’s input and align to his will.

– Church history is inaccurately portrayed. For one thing, there is no single accurate view of any historical event. It’s always more complex than that, and then add time and the biases of those retelling the stories, and who knows what you end up with?

Anyway, I think you’ve got your head on straight. The fact that you feel compelled to join again probably is significant for your own life. I tend to believe in following our instincts. Good luck to you!

[Anonymous]

Hawkgrrrl:

Those are great distinctions I think we should all keep in mind.

I would go even farther with the doctrine though. I would say we really CAN’T “know” if the teaching (doctrine) is true. We can’t verify the existence of the pre-mortal life for example. We can only “believe” it to be true. That’s why statements like “I KNOW the Church is true” drive me crazy. Knowledge, in the classic sense, is verifiable and accessible to all. So, the statement “I BELIEVE the Church is true” works better than “I KNOW”, but “I BELIEVE” will get you called into the Bishop’s office

Thanks for your valuable input!

[Anonymous]

Mormonguy wrote:

That’s why statements like “I KNOW the Church is true” drive me crazy.

If I may offer a suggestion… don’t let it drive you crazy. Just accept that this is their profession of their faith. I can pretty much guarantee you that your desire for people to say “I believe” rather than “I know” will go unfulfilled. If you can’t get past this, then you’ll find continual frustration in the Church. There are many here that have expressed similar sentiment, so you are certainly not alone. But, for me, I think it’s better not to get wrapped around the axle by this.

For one thing, it is projecting our particular concepts of spirituality onto others (which is something we don’t want others to do to us). What difference does it make to us, if other people have this kind of faith?

Speaking personally, there was a time in my life when I used to say “I know” in reference to spiritual things. I was completely sincere and honest about that sentiment. To me, my knowledge came from spiritual proofs, and I would have argued that it was “verifiable and accessible to all.” It would be unfair for me to find fault in others for something I used to do, in a time when my life was more complete and meaningful that it is now.

Also, I’ve had the disagreeable experience of having a member of the Church try to tell me that I’m not really and atheist, that I’m really an agnostic. His point was based in logic; in what is knowable. He incorrectly categorized my beliefs into something that fit his mold. I assured him that I had a very positive, specific belief: that there is no God. He dropped it, unsatisfied. So, I guess, for me, I’ve been on the receiving end of people saying what professions of belief are proper for other people to make, and it’s not pleasant.

There are plenty of things to lament in the Church… I think you’ll find yourself being driven a lot less crazy if you can find a way not to worry about the degree of faithfulness of the people in the Church.

[Anonymous]

Hey On own Now…

Thanks for the advice. I have to admit, you’re right about not letting it drive me crazy. I can make a choice to see it differently. I guess it’s beginning to drive me less crazy because I’ve gotten mostly used to the “formulaic” testimony endings and now mostly tune them out when someone is coming to the end of his/her testimony since they all tend to end the same way.

And yes, in my life too, there was a time when I would have said, “I know”….

[Author]

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