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Had a conversation with a TBM friend of mine. He is an ex-Bishop of 10 years, and lives the gospel to the nth degree. He’s from a land far, far away…we have been friends for over 22 years… We were chatting about my HT challenge (he is the ONLY TBM) I ever talk to, by the way. His assessment is that I am at war with the church. That I could’ve just sent an email indicating what I was willing to do and leave it at that when I was assigned 20 families to HT without constraints etcetera.
So, I was wondering if the tone of my posts sound as if I’m at war with the church. Is that the perception here?
I didn’t get that impression. It seems to me like a lot of TBMs take being critical of church leaders as going to war. I see a huge difference between the two. Criticism is nowhere near trying to tear down an organization. No. We use war rhetoric WAY too much in the Church – and I think Pres. Uchtdorf was addressing that a bit, albeit subtly, in his talk about using fear to motivate.
I understand ultra-orthodox people seeing your approach in terms of war – but that perspective is incorrect.
Now, if he had said that 4-5 years ago – or if you hadn’t found this site . . .
😆 
Thanks. I thought he missed the point. I emerged from my meeting with the Bp agreeing to take on five families, an open invitation to talk to the Bp again, and feeling that I wasn’t judged> I also felt understood for the first time ever by a priesthood leader in power. To label my conversation an Act of War seems pretty harsh to me. One thing I notice about TBM’s, is they can’t seem to acknowledge the many Warts of our church. Truly enlightened people seem to see the full spectrum — until something happens to them.
This is something I’ve noticed in other contexts. I was in a band years ago, and there was a narcissist in it. Every rehearsal or gig he was insulting me — my age, my hair color, my weight, what I do for a living, the sound of my instrument, how I dressed, the quality of my music room, you name it. It was endless, constant and extremely annoying. He was also a Mormon. At the time I didn’t know he was narcissistic until he shared that fact. Yet another member of the group (a non-member) was so bossy and abrasive during setup of our light show, sound system etcetera, I dreaded showing up for set up.
I eventually quit over the endless stream of insults (this guy was a Mormon too) and the abrasive non-member during setup. And one of the other Mormons in the band actually called me and lectured me for not being thick skinned enough to shake it off.
Fast forward a year, and this same guy who had lectured me, told me he had to fire the abrasive setup guy for his behavior during setup — this time, directed at him personally.
Situation two. I helped found a non-profit about 3 years ago after we got them a permanent revenue stream. I was on the board, and there were two members who were very combative and caustic toward me personally. I eventually quit when it got so bad my mentor suggested I start my own thing. The good people on the board blamed me for it — i was too assertive, too fixated on improving the profitability of our event that generated monthly revenue etcetera.
Fast forward 1.5 years, and the three good people on the board who thought the abrasiveness of the other two people on the board was due to my own weaknesses, called me and told me they had quit for the same reason. Two of those people now dedicate their time to my own non-profit, and NOW see that I had nothing to do with it — it was the character of the people on the “giving” end of the abuse in that other organization.
My point is that other people’s interpersonal pain doesn’t seem to register on other’s radar
UNTIL THEY EXPERIENCE IT THEMSELVES.Someone whose had a smooth ride in the church, following the textbook, won’t be able to empathize with the desire to NOT pay your tithing, for your unkind feelings toward the church, etcetera.
I value this guy’s friendship, but I think I’ve gotta limit conversation to only positive experiences at church. Relationships are important, and sometimes, that means not mentioning certain things – including its warts that are liberally dispersed across it.
I don’t think you are “at war” with the church, SD. I don’t think any of us here are. I think you try very hard to make it work for you. I agree with your assessment of some more orthodox individuals not being able to acknowledge the warts of the church. Those same individuals also seem to not be able to understand that people can be happy outside the church even though there are billions of happy people outside the church – the evidence is quite literally overwhelming. You also mentioned different experiences, with which I also agree. None of us truly know what it’s like to lose someone very close to us until it has happened – and for some of us it never really happens. And, once we know Santa isn’t real in the way we understood he was, we can never go back to believing in the fat guy in the red suit in that same way again.
Quote:We use war rhetoric WAY too much in the Church
I agree with Ray.
SD, you definitely have strong opinions and are willing to express them. I don’t think that signifies “war”. But some people just don’t see it that way.
I believe what this LDS friend of yours is saying is that there is an underlying tone of church disloyalty or faultfinding. For many LDS people there is a barrier that prevents looking critically at the church experience. For them to be confronted with your criticism (especially from someone once in leadership) can be worrying or seem threatening.
The church needs us because we are the ones that best recognize areas for improvement. The church distrusts us because we keep bringing up areas for improvement.
Roy wrote:
I believe what this LDS friend of yours is saying is that there is an underlying tone of church disloyalty or faultfinding.For many LDS people there is a barrier that prevents looking critically at the church experience. For them to be confronted with your criticism (especially from someone once in leadership) can be worrying or seem threatening.
The church needs us because we are the ones that best recognize areas for improvement. The church distrusts us because we keep bringing up areas for improvement.
Yes, there is some of that — disloyalty and faultfinding. From a TBM perspective, nothing short of the standard answers or textbook behavior is considered loyalty.
Having studied change in organizations for many years, one glaring fault I see is that our culture of obedience makes the ship turn very slowly when there is a need for change. People see constructive criticism as disloyalty and shut down. They even ostracize people who could make good change agents…
I guess it’s time to make church topics off limits with this friend of mine.
Agreed SD – and even when someone does give some good constructive criticism they are not praised even if the change comes about. I am thinking about Nelson Lowery and his essay on Blacks and the priesthood that apparently played a part in Pres. Kimball on rescinding the ban.
In fact I think most members know nothing about him.
LookingHard wrote:
Agreed SD – and even when someone does give some good constructive criticism they are not praised even if the change comes about.I am thinking about Nelson Lowery and his essay on Blacks and the priesthood that apparently played a part in Pres. Kimball on rescinding the ban.
In fact I think most members know nothing about him.
You might be thinking of Lester Bush, who wrote an influential, very well-researched Dialogue article on the origins of the ban, who was marginalized into inactivity after the ban was lifted. IIRC, Elder Mark E. Peterson tried to have him formally disciplined.
Maybe Dr. Nelson got some of the apostles thinking a couple of decades earlier, though. I know less about him.
If speaking the truth or advocating for yourself is enough to put you at war with the Church, then most of us here are at war. If it has to be done loudly, them most of us here aren’t. I can imagine that the loudness criteria varies from TBM to TBM.
Reuben wrote:
LookingHard wrote:
Agreed SD – and even when someone does give some good constructive criticism they are not praised even if the change comes about.I am thinking about Nelson Lowery and his essay on Blacks and the priesthood that apparently played a part in Pres. Kimball on rescinding the ban.
In fact I think most members know nothing about him.
You might be thinking of Lester Bush, who wrote an influential, very well-researched Dialogue article on the origins of the ban, who was marginalized into inactivity after the ban was lifted. IIRC, Elder Mark E. Peterson tried to have him formally disciplined.
Maybe Dr. Nelson got some of the apostles thinking a couple of decades earlier, though. I know less about him.
If speaking the truth or advocating for yourself is enough to put you at war with the Church, then most of us here are at war. If it has to be done loudly, them most of us here aren’t. I can imagine that the loudness criteria varies from TBM to TBM.
You are right Reuben. My mistake trusting my memory. I need to remember to do that (Error – circular reference
I think it could be said that Jesus was “against the church”.
It doesn’t really matter what your friend thinks. He is not right, or wrong. Since I was not there to observe the exchange, I have no opinion on the matter with what he said. It doesn’t matter what we all think (although I understand the intent to get some outside perspectives to help you process things…no harm in that…it’s what support forums are for). In the spirit of friendship and support…I had some questions for you below.
Quote:His assessment is that I am at war with the church. That I could’ve just sent an email indicating what I was willing to do and leave it at that when I was assigned 20 families to HT without constraints etcetera.
Did you get a chance to ask him what he meant by this?“War” is a pretty strong word, as Ray pointed out. Why did he go there for this issue on HT and an email? Why didn’t he say, “You’re at odds with the church”?
Did it include other topics in addition to this, or really just about this topic? Has he talked to you about you handling things in the past with the church?
Why did his assessment bother you or make you think about it very much?
If I told you that you had green hair, would you even care about that comment and outright dismiss it or think about it for some time?…and compare that scenario to your friend saying you are at war with the church…is there a difference between you having green hair and you being at war with the church?
What is it telling you about your feelings about your relationship with church, or your relationships with that friend?
God knows your heart. He knows if you are waging war or not. You know the answer yourself, I believe.
It would be interesting to hear your responses to these questions.
Heber13 wrote:
It doesn’t really matter what your friend thinks. He is not right, or wrong. Since I was not there to observe the exchange, I have no opinion on the matter with what he said.Ouch a bit. Normally the part in bold means “I’ve only heard one side of the story”. While I recognize that can be a valid way to approach certain problems — particularly those involving heated argument and high emotions, I generally like it when people take what I say at face value, and trust me…
Heber13 wrote:
Did you get a chance to ask him what he meant by this?Yes, and he said I could’ve just sent the email and seen only the families that I felt I had time for. But I chose to go in and object to my Bishop about it, That to him, was me going to War. I made the comment that I felt I had to go in and tell the Bishop where I stood since he keeps at me about callings (about five so far). I also said that I felt the need to let him know what I was willng to do. I made the comment I was no longer on the conscription model of service. He objected to that saying that there is an expectation that people who make covenants will serve willingly, and that it is wrong to make something so good, sound evil (referring to my term “conscription”).
Quote:
“War” is a pretty strong word, as Ray pointed out. Why did he go there for this issue on HT and an email? Why didn’t he say, “You’re at odds with the church”?He’s been a good friend since 1994. He’s the only person from my former LDS years that I’m regular touch with (lesson in that about which relationships are most important in a person’s life). We talk once a month. When I fly to my home country, I often spend a day with him. He knows my full story. So almost everything you know here he knows…so, against that backdrop, perhaps at times in years past I seemed at war. Angry, resistant, non-TR holding, critical of the church after my “eyes were opened”. He sees a guy who refuses callings, doesn’t have a TR, and is therefore not in full fellowship. He’s pretty black and white.
Quote:Did it include other topics in addition to this, or really just about this topic? Has he talked to you about you handling things in the past with the church?
No other topics on this conversation, but in the past, he has told me thinks I’m apostate. That I’m kicking against the pricks. Once he even asked if he could use me as an example of what happens if we don’t forgive people readily in the church. His topic – Apostasy!!
All this sounds strange, that I would consider him a good friend, but we have a lot in common. My church attitudes represent about 15-20% of what we talk about it. Much of our conversations are about our secular lives, problem solving, general life experiences…
Quote:Why did his assessment bother you or make you think about it very much?
He’s a good friend. He knows me well. I respect most of his opinions. I thought I’d just made more progress in my relationship with the church by telling my Bishop where I stood, using testimony-laden language, and felt understood and accepted in spite of it. Not ostracized, but accepted and even respected for my leadership ability. Felt wanted as a strong contributor to the ward again… I had just ordained my son to the priesthood, was attending my home ward again, had accepted my first HT assignment in years, donated a musical group to an activity, and my wife is a ward auxiliary leader.
To then be told I was at War with the church by someone who knows me inside out was disturbing…
Quote:If I told you that you had green hair, would you even care about that comment and outright dismiss it or think about it for some time?…and compare that scenario to your friend saying you are at war with the church…is there a difference between you having green hair and you being at war with the church?
Green hair is objective. Being at War is subjective.
Quote:What is it telling you about your feelings about your relationship with church
I felt confusion. I thought I was getting closer and closer to fuller fellowship. But this guy who knows me well interprets my first attempt at trusting a priesthood leader as war. Very confusing, and it felt unjust.
Quote:or your relationships with that friend?
That i need to steer clear of church topics with him. He doesn’t get dissaffection. I have learned that people can minimize other people’s pain. When they experience it themself, THEN they get it. He’s never had these experiences I’ve had.
I also think he’s partly hurting that both his sons have left the church. They are still members but want nothing to do with it. Here I sit with a son who got himself to church to receive the priesthood when I left at home due to inaction getting ready, and a daughter whose on track for temple marriage. He’s not a jealous person though. A good man at heart.
Quote:God knows your heart. He knows if you are waging war or not. You know the answer yourself, I believe.
All it took were a few responses from people here for me to brush this off. Doesn’t bother me anymore. Everyone was unanimous that I’m not at war, which confirmed what I felt inside. Helped me understand this guy’s perspective too…As Obi-Wan Kenobi once said “Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to…depend greatly on our point of view.”
🙂 Quote:
It would be interesting to hear your responses to these questions.
You got ’em.
I wonder what peace looks like to your friend. One thing I’ve realized in staying active after a faith crisis is that, for my own well-being, I need to regard the Church as a peer or a sibling instead of as a parent. I think most members in our position eventually come to the same conclusion. It’s sort of like how I regard my actual parents now that I haven’t lived with them for years. I see their faults clearly enough to account for their faults, I always take their counsel with a grain of salt, and I wouldn’t give into demands if they were immature enough to try to make demands.
I think most active members have a parent-child relationship with the Church. Those who still think of it as a superhero – which the Church actively encourages, so there are plenty – would see anything but complete submission as unwisely picking a fight.
Heber13 wrote:
If I told you that you had green hair, would you even care about that comment and outright dismiss it or think about it for some time?…and compare that scenario to your friend saying you are at war with the church…is there a difference between you having green hair and you being at war with the church?
Thank you for the thoughtful questions Heber. For me the issue is acceptance vs. rejection. If someone said that they did not like my green hair it would be pretty easy to laugh that person off as nuts (especially if I do not have green hair). The emotion distance between me and this person is wide and their observation is false on its face.
Perhaps my EQP tells me that my facial hair is rebellious and that I should be setting a better example of following the prophet for my young children. This person does have some limited authority over me. What I believe is worse is the inkling that the EQP’s observations represent to broader opinion of my tribe. I begin to feel judged and rejected by a group of people that I care about.
In my most extreme example, suppose my mother tells me that my personal selfishness is severing the eternal chain of our family and that because of my negligence myself, my kids, and my posterity will likely be proverbial “empty chairs.” In this example my mother knows me pretty well. She is also someone whose approval I seek. She is also acting as a spokesman for my tribe and more specifically my LDS lineage. Many intertwining factors intertwine to make the rejection particularly acute in this scenario.
An old LDS friend with whom I served with and we still keep in contact would probably rank between the second and third examples for me.
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