Am I war with the church?

[Anonymous]

Reuben wrote:

One thing I’ve realized in staying active after a faith crisis is that, for my own well-being, I need to regard the Church as a peer or a sibling instead of as a parent.

Reuben and I were typing at the same time. I believe that his thought adds an important element to the discussion. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

If I told you that you had green hair, would you even care about that comment and outright dismiss it or think about it for some time?…and compare that scenario to your friend saying you are at war with the church…is there a difference between you having green hair and you being at war with the church?

Roy wrote:

Thank you for the thoughtful questions Heber. For me the issue is acceptance vs. rejection. If someone said that they did not like my green hair it would be pretty easy to laugh that person off as nuts (especially if I do not have green hair). The emotion distance between me and this person is wide and their observation is false on its face.

Perhaps my EQP tells me that my facial hair is rebellious and that I should be setting a better example of following the prophet for my young children. This person does have some limited authority over me. What I believe is worse is the inkling that the EQP’s observations represent to broader opinion of my tribe. I begin to feel judged and rejected by a group of people that I care about.

The part in bold makes sense. And then there is injustice. I have a hard time with injustice. You do something good and get punished for it verbally. It’s a bit tougher when the person is close to you.

Good news is that I don’t care now that I’ve had the perceptions here. If I chat with him again (for the first time in 30 years he didn’t call me back a week ago, with a weak reason given), our relationship is such that I can tell hm that he needs to focus on the progress, and that I disagree with his War assessment. We can agree to disagree….me and this friend.

[Anonymous]

Excellent thoughts and responses. Thanks for those. Helps me think a lot about what I think.

By the way, SD…my response is not because I don’t trust you or take it for face value. Sorry if that was conveyed. My point was more about whether your friend uses the word “war” or not is more about him than about anything else. I’m just disconnected from the conversation to have any response on it, but it is good to ponder. Your friend is not right or wrong.

Here are some principles I try to love by:

Quote:

Spiritual teacher Deepak Chopra writes:

Quote:

“If you’re really spiritual, then you should be totally independent of the good and the bad opinions of the world…you should have faith in yourself.”

You see, often the people who give you their opinions (and even commands!) love you and have your best interest at heart. They are telling you what they believe is best for you. They have good intentions and thus their opinion is essentially good, since they are telling you what they believe is right. However, even if their opinions are coming from a good place, you still need to be independent of them. Inside all of us is a deep intuitive knowing that gives us solid information on what is best for us. When you listen to that deep knowing, you will feel a sense of joy, expansion, and deep peace (even if the choice is a little scary and out of your comfort zone). The wise teacher is inside of you. At the end of the day, you must choose what is right for you—even when others’ well-intended opinions differ from your own.

The gift your friend gives you is his viewpoint for consideration. He cares enough to spend the effort to convey it. Just as I take time to type this, because I care.

SilentDawning wrote:

Green hair is objective. Being at War is subjective.

Is it? Finite definitions may be drawn for war, or for green (RGB color models) that can literally create objective definitions for both things. However, many people use their own expressions to convey metaphor and subjective meaning to make their point. This principle applies heavily to religious talk. “War with the church” is similar to a “war in heaven” or other ideas expressed to show conflict and compare it to something literal we can understand and liken it to so we can choose how to react to it. The expression can be interesting to ponder and what it means to you. It’s a mental exercise. You’re not literally at war, and your hair is not literally green. So…if they say it…is it meaningful (in which case it can be processed for shaping our own opinions) or it is meaningless (and can be rejected without further consideration).

I’ve practiced this a lot with things people have said and thought about me. It helps me to find peace. If it isn’t true, no matter what others say, it can be discarded. That also applies to cafeteria style mormonism of building your testimony by clinging to truth, and discarding what is not useful.

SilentDawning wrote:

I respect most of his opinions. I thought I’d just made more progress in my relationship with the church by telling my Bishop where I stood, using testimony-laden language, and felt understood and accepted in spite of it. Not ostracized, but accepted and even respected for my leadership ability.

This sounds to me more the heart of the reaction you had. Expectations. I don’t belittle or dismiss those lightly. We all manage these and it hurts and makes us angry and makes us disappointed and sometimes makes us wonder why we even try.

You’re very good with self-reflection and identifying the issues, and have been open and honest and sincere posting here about it. I think that helps others who read and identify with your feelings.

So…my response is in that line of thinking. Your friend is not right or wrong, and I have no opinion on the matter, because it didn’t happen to me. I can understand the feelings, however. And all of it to me is why it is healthy to stayLDS and keep going to church. As we have these interactions, we experience the human condition, and work through them to choose how to learn from it, how to process it, how to react to it, how to become self-aware of our emotions around it.

When you can maintain relationships with those you care about and respect, but disagree with…it shows maturity. Because relationships build us up and are more important than ideas in isolation.

I have listened to a lot of podcasts and seminars from Eckhart Tolle, and that influences my responses. Other people have their opinions. They aren’t any more right or wrong than our opinions. They are just expressions of thought and emotion. It is interesting to live in the now and just consider the impact it has on us and why. That isn’t to say we don’t have emotional reactions, and we become robots. No…we are emotional, and we do get feelings hurt. That is part of the experience, and it is fine to have them. And then it is important to consider how to choose to react if we want to maintain relationships or diminish them and back slowly away from negative things in our lives.

SilentDawning wrote:

He’s never had these experiences I’ve had.

Well said, and an important realization which may never need to be uttered out loud if not helpful for him. But good to realize for your own healthy.

SilentDawning wrote:

We can agree to disagree….me and this friend.

That does sound like a good friend.

Your responses are good ones. Thanks for sharing.

[Anonymous]

Reuben wrote:

One thing I’ve realized in staying active after a faith crisis is that, for my own well-being, I need to regard the Church as a peer or a sibling instead of as a parent. I think most members in our position eventually come to the same conclusion. It’s sort of like how I regard my actual parents now that I haven’t lived with them for years. I see their faults clearly enough to account for their faults, I always take their counsel with a grain of salt, and I wouldn’t give into demands if they were immature enough to try to make demands

I agree Reuben. There are healthier ways to position the relationships in our minds.

I have long felt that is why God doesn’t protect us from faith crises, or keep us from transitions.

Transitions in thinking are not a bad thing. Sometimes, the take us out of a place we were holding ourselves in which was the less healthy position for us to take.

My kids (24, 22, 18, 14) are going through that in some degree…finding out the faults in their dad…the things they don’t really agree with that they used to just take as face value. The good thing is our relationship strengthens as they become healthy adults that know how to disagree with me but know I love them. They also see things they thought I was so dumb and so wrong about, and now that they aren’t selfish teenagers…they can see the wisdom of a parent’s viewpoint.

All of that plays into our relationships with church in our lives also.

I also know of some people who feel it healthiest to cut off all contact with their mom or dad…and that really is something that works for them to find their peace. That happens too.

Not all relationships can be “fixed”, nor should they.

Even Nephi knew leaving Laman and Lemuel would be a better option than trying keep the relationships going and try to just “love and work it out”.

It’s ok to walk away from toxic relationships, after we’ve tried all we can do.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

In my most extreme example, suppose my mother tells me that my personal selfishness is severing the eternal chain of our family and that because of my negligence myself, my kids, and my posterity will likely be proverbial “empty chairs.” In this example my mother knows me pretty well. She is also someone whose approval I seek. She is also acting as a spokesman for my tribe and more specifically my LDS lineage. Many intertwining factors intertwine to make the rejection particularly acute in this scenario.

Good examples Roy.

The situations where we care about the relationship enough to work through those things is what motivates us to stay and learn from the experiences.

But…even if mom was throwing around the “empty chair” thing…we can’t change who we are to just meet their approval. The relationship is healthy when they also are motivated to work through it. All those parents that agonize about their “lost children” and get such good advice from church leaders on never closing the door, never giving up hope, never stop loving and never giving up faith that God can help seal families together…all those things are good to help parents work to accept their children and their choices.

It stings when they make me feel I am less than, or not the son to make them proud. That needs to be worked through. It’s on them and on me.

I am lucky enough to have a wonderful loving family that rallies around me in my darkest times, listens to my questions and doubts, and gives me advice from their point of view. They care. Frankly, I think some day they will better understand why I am for gay marriage. In time, I think they’ll get it. For now…I love them back, despite our differences.

“Empty chair” comments are only meaningful if I take things literally. Since I don’t, some comments will still sting, still hurt…but…as mom3 quoted:

Quote:

“Even when you are not at fault—perhaps especially when you are not at fault—let love conquer pride.” – President Dieter F. Uchtdorf

I think loving others helps break down the prejudice and judgment we face. Cling to what is good, and keep being loving and good…let others throw the mud and hurtful expressions inside them. They have hurt too.

[Anonymous]

I very much appreciate the conversation in this thread. It is thought provoking for me.

[Author]

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