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m&g, thank you for sharing your experience. I can tell that the experience has special significance to you. Mike from Milton.
Thank you M&G. I appreciate hearing your experiences and thoughts. It provides added insight into my life in a positive way. I think I’ve only even talked about this experience with maybe 3 or 4 friends and family members. Partially because some of it was so intensely personal and partly because I just have never known exactly what to make of it. People tend to experience NDEs, visions, or out of body experiences that reinforce their belief systems. Mine sort of did that but some aspects were distinctly not how I understood Mormonism at 20. As an example, there were people who I knew were family (and again I can’t even begin to verbalize this because it was like I was behind a thick, velvet, theater curtain – close enough that I was convinced I could reach out and touch it in front of me – but weighty and heavy enough to darken the whole room and completely separate me from the voice of the man on the other side). I had not been through the temple and had no idea about the veil in the temple so there’s no correlation to that imagery. Anyway, those people who were there – I knew what they looked like and they were all, except my one grandmother who I actually knew in mortality, non-member relatives. They looked like my mom’s people. She’s a convert, the only member in her family. At 20, I would have expected them to be in “spirit prison”, not meeting me, a faithful member, as I crossed over. The voice of the man who spoke to me was gentle and loving and I knew (again, I don’t know how I knew but I did) that if I just reached out my hand, He would take it and that would be the end of my life in this body. At my age and understanding then, I would have expected to be welcomed with light and rejoicing, not compelled to decide whether I wanted to live or not. It felt very much like the whole experience was designed to teach me something rather than to actually provide passage elsewhere. This feeling was reinforced by the growing awareness I have had from the moment I decided to stay, that the one offering a choice already knew my answer. Does that make any sense at all?
Quote:The one offering a choice already knew my answer.
Does that make any sense at all?
Absolutely.
One of my uncle’s lessons from his experience was that he had to be presented with the choices he was given so HE would accept his life afterward as HIS choice – what he really wanted, even given the difficulties that followed. He couldn’t “blame” god or anyone else – and it allowed him to see everything that happened, even the hard stuff, as truly a gift.
That is a profound understanding, imo.
I think we would fall upon our faces and weep for joy if we truly understood the entire span of out eternal existence – and how little this life matters, even as it matters so very much. That’s nothing more than faith for me, since I have no personal evidence of it, but it’s how I feel and what I hope.
absolutely makes sense. it was clearly a mystical experience…very powerful. was it a lucid-dream vision or actual near death? I ask rhetorically–please don’t answer that. the way you act here, your clear spiritual sesitivities are present in almost every dialogue. your comment of merely coninuing the divine dance is most enlightened. Old-Timer wrote:Quote:The one offering a choice already knew my answer.
Does that make any sense at all?
Absolutely.
One of my uncle’s lessons from his experience was that he had to be presented with the choices he was given so HE would accept his life afterward as HIS choice – what he really wanted, even given the difficulties that followed.
Ray, this is absolutely what happened to me! After I decided to stay, the voice said that I would face some tremendous challenges and that some would seem too hard to bear but that from that point on I would always know that I had made the choice to be here. That knowledge alone has gotten me through a handful of moments when I thought I would break – and by all accounts, probably should have.
wayfarer wrote:the way you act here, your clear spiritual sesitivities are present in almost every dialogue. your comment of merely coninuing the divine dance is most enlightened.
Thanks, Wayfarer.
M&G, thanks for sharing your experience. I’m tempted to say that I would like to have an NDE so that I could have such a strong belief in the afterlife, but I don’t think I want to be in a position where I am that close do death. I have also found it strange that no NDE I have read about fits the Mormon model of the afterlife. On my mission I taught people that there is a partial judgement immediately after death and that people go to either spirit prison or spirit paradise, but no NDE account that I am aware of has reported this happening. I imagine you’ve read all of the NDE literature and the potential neurological explanations, but I’m sure that none of the biological explanations can adequately explain the powerful reality of your experience. Quote:No NDE account that I am aware of has reported this happening.
No NDE would, since they are experiences of people who were only mostly dead.
š (Sorry if someone doesn’t recognize that movie reference from one of the funniest movies ever made.)
Thanks, I caught the movie reference š I suppose that’s a good point- since the person didn’t actually die, I guess we wouldn’t expect people to be sorted in such a way. Christopher Hitchens used the same argument to dismiss NDE- since the person didn’t actually die, then NDEs don’t tell us anything about the afterlife. I guess a “Mormon NDE” would involve seeing all your dead relatives wearing dark business suits with white shirts and conservative ties or pastel-colored dresses, hearing one of your dead relatives quote Bruce R. McConkie, going to a correlation meeting in a Mormon-looking chapel, hearing primary songs in the background, seeing people’s temple garment markings showing through their thin white shirts, and being told that you need to meet with your Bishop for a PPI so he could consult the handbook of instructions to decide whether or not you would go back to your body. That’s what I would expect for a Mormon afterlife- everything would be very Mormon, even down the the casseroleš But yes, the above Mormon afterlife scenario is one that a TBM might maintain a belief in. Since I am no longer a TBM, I wouldn’t expect an NDE or an afterlife to be like that.
InquiringMind wrote:M&G, thanks for sharing your experience. I’m tempted to say that I would like to have an NDE so that I could have such a strong belief in the afterlife, but I don’t think I want to be in a position where I am that close do death. I have also found it strange that no NDE I have read about fits the Mormon model of the afterlife. On my mission I taught people that there is a partial judgement immediately after death and that people go to either spirit prison or spirit paradise, but no NDE account that I am aware of has reported this happening. I imagine you’ve read all of the NDE literature and the potential neurological explanations, but I’m sure that none of the biological explanations can adequately explain the powerful reality of your experience.
I think the concept of a ‘partial judgment’ is inaccurate. I think what really happens is best described in D&C 88:40
For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.I think we naturally gravitate toward those who are like us and that there is a concerted effort by beings of a higher consciousness to love, educate, and lift up those whose baser natures prevent progress. Celestial beings minister to Terrestrial beings. Terrestrial beings minister to Telestial beings.
mercyngrace wrote:I think we naturally gravitate toward those who are like us and that there is a concerted effort by beings of a higher consciousness to love, educate, and lift up those whose baser natures prevent progress. Celestial beings minister to Terrestrial beings. Terrestrial beings minister to Telestial beings.
M&G, your ideas continue to help me find value in the LDS cosmology.
During one painful GD lesson perhaps a year ago, I felt that my views might be incompatible with what I saw as a quid-pro-quo, pay to play, 3 kingdom model. I was heartbroken because I thought that would spell the end for me in the church.
Thanks for helping me to find a foot hold that I could really identify with. Not just hold onto in desperation, but actually renew a sense of awe and wonder as if to see the whole LDS plan of salvation with new eyes.
This is StayLDS at its finest.
(for any that would like to revisit my roadblock moment and M&Gās excellent take on the subject ā
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2288&hilit=love+wins&start=20 mercyngrace wrote:I think the concept of a ‘partial judgment’ is inaccurate. I think what really happens is best described in D&C 88:40…
I think we naturally gravitate toward those who are like us and that there is a concerted effort by beings of a higher consciousness to love, educate, and lift up those whose baser natures prevent progress. Celestial beings minister to Terrestrial beings. Terrestrial beings minister to Telestial beings.
Isn’t Section 88 amazing? So much depth and understanding of the ontology and cosmology of god and nature. Section 88 is what holds me in the church.Roy wrote:Thanks for helping me to find a foot hold that I could really identify with. Not just hold onto in desperation, but actually renew a sense of awe and wonder as if to see the whole LDS plan of salvation with new eyes.
This is StayLDS at its finest.
Indeed. m&g’s insights have enlightened me quite a bit here. It’s quite refreshing.mercyngrace wrote:I think we naturally gravitate toward those who are like us and that there is a concerted effort by beings of a higher consciousness to love, educate, and lift up those whose baser natures prevent progress. Celestial beings minister to Terrestrial beings. Terrestrial beings minister to Telestial beings.
I have been re reading one of what I consider an interesting book on the spirit world. The title is Life in the World Unseen by Anthony Borgia. It supposedly describes in detail the spirit world and the workings thereof from someone who has been there. ONe of the basic parts of the book is that there are different levels and those in higher levels are constantly working to uplift those in lower ones. We all basically are working on eternal progression. But the world it describes is quite nice so I think if there is an afterlife this would be OK. Do I believe it? Maybe or maybe not. I see no harm in looking forward to an afterlife that is better than this life, but I have no interest in the heaven and hell scenario laid out by most religions. If there is no opportunity for the vilest of the vile to have some chance of progression even if it takes a billion years what is the point of the after life. It would just become an elitist club.
If there is an afterlife I am totally convinced that the particular religion you adhere to has no basis on your standing in the spirit world. It may have helped shape you and helped in your progression in some ways but could just as likely have hindered you. This is why i think it always is best to look for the unvarnished truth in religion as much as possible, and I dislike nuance and rationalization to make something that is mediocre grandiose to satisfy a personal desire for belief.
On the other hand blinking out of existence may not be so bad either. I recently had a medical procedure that required me to be put under. I remember the operating room and the recovery room and everything in between was totally devoid of any memory. It was more profound than any sleep. No dreaming or being half aware of existing like sleep does for me. So if there is no after life I am sure this is what it is like. You just cease to exist and you never know the difference. I find that acceptable if it is to be, but would still go with a cool afterlife if that is the case.
The discussion has been helpful so far. It’s clear to me that if no religion is really the one true religion, then a person’s standing in the afterlife would not be affected by which religion they were a part of. I next wonder about God and the afterlife- if there is a God and an afterlife, then why would God create a mortal world for us to live on, and allow humans to be created through evolution to be naturally disposed towards religious belief, but not reveal a one true religion, and instead allow us to choose between a large number of religions that all claim to be the one true religion but are in fact all both partially right and partially wrong? Why would God create people to come up with a huge number of creation myths involving mystical beings with supernatural powers, all of which are ultimately wrong? Why would God create people to come up with all kinds of strict and mutually exclusive methods and rituals (i.e. ordinances) for getting to heaven, all of which turn out to be unnecessary? God could have saved us a whole lot of work- not to mention some bloody religious wars- by just giving us some simple information about reality and telling us that no religion is the only way. It’s possible that there is an afterlife, but no God. The Star Wars universe and (you’ll have to forgive me if I’m wrong, because I have seen the movies but haven’t read the books) the Harry Potter universe are examples of universes where there is an afterlife, but no God. In the Star Wars universe, no one seems to believe that God answers prayers, but there is a clear “netherworld of the Force” where the spirits of the dead go. It’s the same with Harry Potter- no one prays or expects God to intervene in human (or wizard) affairs, but there is a clear afterlife. This scenario seems to be the most far-fetched and unlikely, and a naturalistic world where humans really aren’t anything more than stuff seems more likely than this scenario.
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