An introduction and a few questions

[Anonymous]

Hello all.

I’ve been lurking for awhile on this and some similar sites and have seen that there are many in situations similar to mine. I’ve posted on some other boards, like postmo.org, but on exMormon boards the tone can get very nasty, very quickly, and I don’t necessarily like that.

I was born and raised near where I now live in the mid-west. I was baptized along with my parents a month or two before I turned 10 years old, about 40 years ago. My older brother and sister had already been baptized by my ferociously TBM grandfather (first member in our family). Like several of our cousins, the older brother and sister have not attended church since their youth (in my brother’s case, since not long after his mission). I have a younger sister that was, and is still, very TBM.

I don’t think I was ever quite sure about things myself, but I always did what was expected so far as things like advancing in the priesthood and going on a mission. I was sure I would get a real testimony on my mission, but it didn’t happen. Partly because I never got over what I later realized was profound disappointment at not being sent to an overseas, foreign speaking mission. When the stateside English speaking mission call came I told myself it was inspired because after all, it was not about me. I later admitted to my mission pres that I never got over the disappointment, and indeed I never did.

Anyway, years later my parents left the church to become Baptists. An aunt and uncle on the west coast went from 20 years of being big time TBM (bishopric callings, etc.) to leaving to become born again Christians. As for me, I had wasted much of my youth going back and forth to Utah in search of my forever bride, and finally found her. Now, as much as I love and adore her, were it not for her I would join much of my family on the outside. I’m sure I never tried as hard as I should have, but I never got that testimony. I did a great job of ignoring all the “anti” thrown at me on my mission, so I knew there were authenticity questions but I just figured it would all be sorted out in the end. In the meantime I just told myself (and later my TBM wife) that I would cling to the idea that [paraphrasing] – “for some it is given to know and for some it is given to believe on their words”. So I just believed on their words. My grandfathers, my wife’s, the GA’s, etc.

Then came DNA vs. the Lamanites. That was a game changer for me. I knew about the BOM anachronisms and other issues, but again, that was part of what I decided would be sorted out in the end. But the DNA confirmation of what science had already said about origins of native Americans was too much for me to ignore. Especially when apologists went into denial mode and acted like there was anything consistent at all in suggesting that there was already a significant indigenous population here, and Lehi and company just blended in. Oh I see, it’s just that no one in the BOM ever bothered to mention that tiny detail. 🙄 After I became aware of the DNA issue, I began researching to find out how I could know that those scientists were wrong. But once I did that, the flood gates opened.

In the meantime though, I would like to be as much like the person my wife wants/expects me to be as possible for her sake, but I am struggling mightily with it. She says it’s obvious that I don’t want to be at church by the look on my face as I sit next to her in SM. DW has no interest in what I think, or have discovered about the BOM or church or anything, she is all in and always will be. So here are my questions for anyone that might have been here and done this:

How do you just go through the motions in Mormonism? If you’re a member of pretty much any other Christian sect, having questions or doubts would be no big deal. You would go to church when and if you wanted, and would take from it or give to it what you wanted. Not so with Mormonism. How do you stay but not give talks (no one wants to give them anyway, but I never disliked speaking in SM like I do now in my current situation)? How do you stay and not have a calling (I don’t mind helping out, but I hate pretending I am something I am not)? How do you stay but say “no” when you’re asked to go out with the missionaries? I already don’t pay tithing and don’t go to the temple, but I don’t like that because I don’t like participating in something I can’t commit to like everyone else. If I’m going to be there, I want to be all in! But I can’t make myself feel that way.

Anyone else able to relate?? If so, have you found any answers?

[Anonymous]

Welcome Cobalt Duck! (Love that name) I am glad you found us. Many of us can certainly relate to your situation.

You ask some interesting questions, I would like to address a couple that I am personally sensitive to.

How is it possible to “go through the motions”? It takes time, I think it helps to realize that first of all. Try not to be in a rush. For me it has helped tremendously to look for and embrace the figurative and metaphorical value in everything I hear at church. It has also helped for me to realize that not all church members think and believe exactly alike. That idea used to be completely foreign to me, digesting that fact has been a huge portion of the battle.

I just posted on another thread:

The following describes my pillar of faith, I want to receive truth – and I hope my traditions and prejudices don’t blind me from it — or that in itself removes me from pure Mormonism.

Heber13 wrote:

“One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let is come from where it may.” [Source: Sermon from Joseph Smith July 9, 1843]

– On July 23 1843, he preached, “Have the Presbyterians any truth? Embrace that. Have the Baptists, Methodists, and so forth? Embrace that. Get all the good in the world, and you will come out a pure Mormon.”

Quotes like that speak volumes to me. They tell me I am not only free but encouraged to embrace truth – “come from where it may”! I LOVE the idea that Pure Mormonism is nothing more or less than what is actually true. Never mind what is taught from the pulpit, cling to (search for) what is actually true — and know you are becoming more “Mormon” by doing so!

Everything else that follows (for me at least) are less important details. After realizing how human nature moves people in all kinds of directions it becomes easier to be compassionate and forgiving of the early and present church leaders who may have given mis-direction in some areas. Not to claim that I understand or possess all truth, but I can be open to it – and that makes all the difference.

As far as other details – such as who the BoM people were, where they lived, IF they lived, etc. These types of questions have slowly fallen from my radar screen. Yes, if I were to get into deep discussions on the topic with other members there is a good chance some of their eyes may burst from their sockets, but what’s the big deal? Like I said before members believe all kinds of different things, even if they don’t voice their opinions in church. Take comfort in the “openness” of our religion. It is “big tent” (meaning the “restored” teachings of Joseph Smith) Joseph taught we are free to believe as we are led to believe. If you are sincere, you are good. Don’t worry about what does and does not line up with the currently “popular” beliefs. We don’t have any officially outlined theology that one must believe – other than Jesus taught the way to salvation. And in my opinion that statement can be interpreted by virtually anyone in a way that they can agree with.

Best wishes to you! I look forward to future discussions!

[Anonymous]

Welcome Cobalt Duck. First, since you’ve been watching this site for awhile, you already know that your story isn’t unique and you are not alone. Personally, I find a lot of comfort in that. I believe that while everyone has a similar background story, there are many different ways to react to it. I can tell you some of the things that have worked for me, but they may not work for you.

I think that for me, a few decisions I’ve made over the years have been crucial to finding an equilibrium.

– I decided early on that I didn’t want to be anti. There is much to love and admire about the Church, the gospel it preaches, and the people. I couldn’t abide the nasty tone, as you referred to it, of the ex Mormon boards at the time, and I didn’t want to be associated with that. I don’t try to convince anyone that the Church is “not true”. Not my wife, not my kids, not my friends. There would be no point in that. I’m an atheist now, but fully support anyone that has a religious or spiritual belief. If it helps them, who am I to say that they should turn away? I’m lucky to be married to such a wonderful spouse. I was the one who changed, not her, and she has stayed with me through the difficult time. I feel like I owe it to her to support her, even though it would be more convenient for me if she lost her faith, too. When I talk to people about my situation (my wife, my family, close friends), I do not go into reasons why. That is proselyting. I just tell them I’m not a believer anymore.

– When I first turned away from faith in Mormonism, I tried to figure out if there was a Christian church that would work for me (before I was an atheist). It just didn’t work. I was too emotionally connected to the environment for that to work. So, I used the LDS Church as a platform for my personal study of and commitment to Christianity. I became a fan of the New Testament. It turns out that we do use the NT in the LDS Church, so that became a connection point. The Sacrament is still respectful of and symbolic of Christ’s Atonement, and is just as valid in the LDS Church as any other.

– I looked for ways I could help to be involved that were not BofM related. By that I mean that in a ward, there are parties, activities, organizations which do not require you to quote any church dogma. Help with the boy scouts, for example. You do much good and never have to get weepy about Joseph Smith.

– For the most part, I go just to SM. There, I listen to heart-felt talks by people that are truly trying to live to a higher standard. I often feel inspired. I look at it this way. I could never (again) be a missionary for the Church. But I greatly admire the dedication and effort of the full-time missionaries. Find the good. Most of the Church is good. We don’t teach Blood Atonement in the LDS Church. Sure, there’s a history, but its not part of our religion. If you listen to the anti crowd, you’d think Mormons were a bunch of child-molesting devil worshipers. But that’s not true. The practice of the Church today is inherently good, in my opinion. I was driving down the road one time and I saw a car with 4 20-ish guys. Tattos, cigarettes. These guys looked like they had no direction in life. The very next car had 4 LDS missionaries. The contrast was so stark. Celebrate the good of the Church, and you’ll be able to find a way to stay.

On Own Now

[Anonymous]

I’m so glad you introduced yourself and told us your story. Welcome!

I have no advice but want to recognize your struggle and I’m so glad that you want to find a place that isn’t full a acrimony. That is why I love staylds.

[Anonymous]

Welcome to the forum, duck.

Good questions, and I will share openly that I don’t think there is an easy, one-size fits all formula.

But there are some things that of time you can find can work for you. If you haven’t read the essay on the stayLDS homepage, I encourage you to read that. It has some good ideas.

For starters, I say to try to find things on the buffet menu that you do like and cling to those and build those. There is so much good in Mormonism and the Book of Mormon, that DNA discussions don’t eclipse them all. Love, service, family, following Christ…embrace all the good that tastes good to you.

Personally, I have found lately the need to take breaks from church and be honest about it with myself and my family. But I push myself to stay connected and stay finding spiritual sources to keep boosting me…so I attend often, but not always. And that is OK for me for now. When I teach youth lessons, I find enough good material to make it meaningful to me, and the students.

In short, I make it what I want and what I need, not what I think others think I should want and need. Letting go of worrying about what people think of me has been liberating. Just some of my initial thoughts, I look forward to learning from your posts!

[Anonymous]

Hey, CD. Welcome and thanks for introducing yourself. You have described my situation to a T, so I will be watching with interest to see where you go with this.

I will share a couple of things that are helping me. First of all, I am trying to not be so negative, which I’m sure the other posters here can attest to . We often think that we will get what we want by being negative, but that is a delusion. Things inevitably go more smoothly when we can keep a good attitude even while doing something that in some ways we’d rather not be doing (such as attending church). I try to remind myself that I’m there for my spouse, and that she probably doesn’t want to be hanging out with a sourpuss. The other is that I have divorced myself mentally from all aspects of the church that I found the most stultifying and depressing. For example, I am not bound to approach god through the auspices of the church. I can do so directly, and if I come to a new insight that contradicts the SS manual or the CHI, no big deal. I am a free agent and there is no authority (i.e. priesthood “authority”) in the church that can take that away.

Anyway, I’m glad you found this place and I hope you are able to find some answers to your questions.

[Anonymous]

Hey Cobalt Duck,

Welcome to the StayLDS.com community.

Cobalt Duck wrote:

Anyone else able to relate?? If so, have you found any answers?

Yup. You found the right place my friend. We can all relate.

Like others already said, there isn’t a single right answer that fits everyone. I can tell you what works for me. I reset my relationship with the institutional church. I like my ward. I really like some of the people there. I enjoy being there when I attend. I like a lot of ideas in Mormonism. So there are all those positives for me. Nobody is making me attend. I really have no pressure in that regard since my wife is out and my kids are all inactive. That part is different for me compared to your situation. But you situation is the most common (spouse still traditional believer).

The LDS Church is a very VERY involved and time-intensive religion. It doesn’t have to be, but that is the long-established culture. It’s tough at first, but you can reset that relationship. You just have to start telling people “no.” It’s best to have something practiced and prepared to say that involves the following key points:

1. Be polite and smile.

2. Feel love and appreciation for the offer, radiate this. But also feel comfortable and confident. It’s a VOLUNTEER organization!

3. DON’T get into any conversation about history or doctrine when confronted with a request for you to do something. That isn’t the right setting for such a discussion. The reason you are saying “no” is because that isn’t how you want to serve. It’s a volunteer organization. Make it about YOUR decision, not about THEIR beliefs.

4. DO serve and help when you can, if that is what you want to do. It builds positive community “capital” (true of any volunteer organization).

5. DO make suggestions about areas of service you are interested in. It might lead to inspiration to give you those types of callings and assignments

Glad you are here with us to share the journey. I look forward to hearing your ideas and experiences as well.

[Anonymous]

Wow, some great responses, thanks so much!!!

You all really hit the nail on the head with some things.

I do need to be as positive as I can, for my DW’s sake, if nothing else. As Doug indicates, she deserves to not be sitting there with a sourpuss.

And as Brian has just explained, the participation issues will boil down to just saying “no”. That is very against my nature (and I’m sure the same is true of you all), so that will not be easy, but in fact it has already begun. We just moved into a new ward and were immediately getting hit pretty hard about giving talks. I understand that’s a way to introduce yourselves so I’m not really complaining, I just cannot do that now, and may never again. So I had little private talk with a member of the Bishopric and told him exactly where I stand. He was very cool about it, and said “just let us know if we can help – we’ll not worry about the speaking in church issue right now”. The ward has been really good in other ways too (we have a special needs child and they’ve been great with him) so there certainly are things to be positive about. 🙂 (Another of which is that in this ward you sign up to go out with the missionaries. In my last ward, they signed you up!) (plus, if you didn’t go, you were expected to provide your replacement)

But in the meantime, a big part of my problem is the lifestyle restrictions, especially Sunday issues. Even if I can live with being a non-believer that still attends, frankly, I’d like to be able to utilize and enjoy Sundays the way nearly everyone else in the world does. Three hours of church plus the time to get ready, etc., occupies enough of the day, but then you add all the “keep the Sabbath day holy” stuff and that sourpuss look on my face is back in a hurry!!

Anyway, it definitely does look like I came to the right place. I absolutely look forward to discussing these, and other matters with all of you, and learning from each others experiences.

Thanks again for the warm welcome!

[Anonymous]

Cobalt Duck, I like your questions:

Quote:

How do you just go through the motions in Mormonism? If you’re a member of pretty much any other Christian sect, having questions or doubts would be no big deal. You would go to church when and if you wanted, and would take from it or give to it what you wanted. Not so with Mormonism. How do you stay but not give talks (no one wants to give them anyway, but I never disliked speaking in SM like I do now in my current situation)? How do you stay and not have a calling (I don’t mind helping out, but I hate pretending I am something I am not)? How do you stay but say “no” when you’re asked to go out with the missionaries? I already don’t pay tithing and don’t go to the temple, but I don’t like that because I don’t like participating in something I can’t commit to like everyone else. If I’m going to be there, I want to be all in! But I can’t make myself feel that way.

Anyone else able to relate?? If so, have you found any answers?

I wish I had answers for you. Iam in the process of finding my own answers. Right now I take it a day at a time. I do what I can. When I can’t, I say “no” & won’t feel guilty about it. Recently, I was asked to do some home teaching & I said yes. We’ll see what happens. During Sacrament Meeting, I look for people I don’t know & I introduce myself.

For now, that will have to do.

I’m looking forward to hear more from you.

Good luck on your journey.

Mike from Milton.

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