- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
cwald wrote:
Touche’. Yes, I have been a fool.
I don’t know. I think it’s admirable. I’d rather be a happy fool than a smart storm cloud.
Katzpur wrote:Forgive me. I’m evidently pretty uninformed. What is this “Middle Way”?
Some of us call that place between belief in the One True LDS baptism and wholesale rejection of Mormonism the Middle Way. Not black. Not white. Maybe gray. Maybe rainbow.
… Katzpur wrote:Forgive me. I’m evidently pretty uninformed. What is this “Middle Way”?
Correct me if I’m wrong everyone, but my understanding is the MIddle Way as it relates to Mormonism is a philosophy which advocates finding an acceptable medium between fully accepting all of Mormonism’s commandments and doctrines, and completely rejecting it all. It’s goal is to help people stay connected to the Church when they have lost their faith, no longer feel certain commandments are necessary or beneficial etcetera.
It’s NOT a movement of any kind; it’s more a last resort attempt to help people stay involved in the Church when they have such a big stake in it — like a wife who might leave them if they go completely stone cold, children being raised in mormonism, and also, a lot of staunch, traditional believers in their family who will raise hades if you start saying out loud what you really feel about the Church or Mormonism. For many, Middle Way Mormonism is the only way to stay active; since literal belief is no longer an option, the only alternative would be to leave altogether.
Here is what I think an example of middle way mormonism looks like. Married in the Temple, Born in the Covenant, returned missionary with a long history in the Church has a trial of faith. If he had it his way, he’d leave altogether. But this would cause marital problems, family members ostracizing him and causing tension, and becoming a Ward service project.
So, he decides to make his continued involvement in Mormonism tolerable by taking a Middle Way. He redefines what tithing means to him, paying a lesser amount than the party line of 10% of net/gross. He cuts back the areas in which he will serve willingnly — perhaps by being choosy about which callings he takes, regarding calls as something from local leaders and not necessarily inspired.
And he gives up on the Word of Wisdom privately. He stops seeking a temple recommend and stops wearing his garments. But he still goes to Church as much as is expected in his family. He stops looking at everything literally, and chooses to look at the BoM as a story that contains truth, just as the movie Ghandi contains truth, or even the book Moby Dick contains allegories of truth. He stops looking at it as a literal translation, but as a work of fiction that contains many inspiring stories about how to live one’s life.
This is what Middle Way could look like. This is a fictitious person here, with a fictitious Middle Way, but hopefully it gets the idea across.
*sigh* That’s all.
Tom Haws wrote:cwald wrote:Touche’. Yes, I have been a fool.
I don’t know. I think it’s admirable. I’d rather be a happy fool than a smart storm cloud.
I don’t think Cwald’s been a fool, just for the record. I was just making an observation that is consistent with the How To Stay article that advocates not being vocal about your concerns to leaders, or you might encourage them to act like leaders.
In fact, Brian, perhaps the StayLDS article should be updated to even suggest caution when sharing doubts with staunch family members, particularly given CWald’s experience here?
Quote:Can anyone imagine Jesus holding a meeting like this?
Yes, brown, I can – IF he thought the person really was a danger, a wolf in sheep’s clothing or a hypocrite. In fact, in Jesus’ case, he probably would have had the discussion in public and with a lot of name calling – at least, if the accounts in the Bible are accurate to any degree.
I wish it was as easy as your question implies, but it isn’t. It just isn’t. I’m not defending cwald’s Stake President completely, but, especially with the latest information about the probability that the concern was expressed passionately by a family member, my take on the situation is now a WHOLE lot more charitable toward the SP than the first impression – and there’s a really, really, really important lesson in that for all of us.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:Can anyone imagine Jesus holding a meeting like this?
Yes, brown, I can – IF he thought the person really was a danger, a wolf in sheep’s clothing or a hypocrite. In fact, in Jesus’ case, he probably would have had the discussion in public and with a lot of name calling – at least, if the accounts in the Bible are accurate to any degree.
Ray, I’m not sure I agree with this one. The paradox of Jesus’ life on earth can be summarized like this “How can I love a perfect, exemplary life, yet get convicted and sentenced to death???”. What a tough one. I think Jesus broke the paradox by calling out every powerful leader he ran into, including overturning tables at the temple when he saw sin. This way he would rile up the establishment. For me, it’s one of the reasons he didn’t really defend himself in front of the Sanhedrin and Pontius Pilate.
So, I don’t this his public rebuking of people can be seen as a pattern we should follow.
Now, as far as the SP following up; I can see it. He probably has to given the complaint from cwald’s family and the overall culture of “protecting the Church”. Now that it’s been looked-into, I hope the BP reports that cWald has his own trials of faith, but in his estimation, is not out to convert the Ward or others to a new, organized form of Mormonism called Middle Way Mormonism. If I was the SP, I’d let the whole investigation end right there. Now, the extracting of records from SLC strikes me as going a bit too far at this phase, in my view. Definite overkill.
I also wonder what the impact will be on cwald’s relationship with his family. Personally, I’d be talking to them about it after the dust settles. I’d be really disturbed at this kind of behavior from my own family. You have me thankful my natural family are non-members.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:Can anyone imagine Jesus holding a meeting like this?
Yes, brown, I can – IF he thought the person really was a danger, a wolf in sheep’s clothing or a hypocrite. In fact, in Jesus’ case, he probably would have had the discussion in public and with a lot of name calling – at least, if the accounts in the Bible are accurate to any degree.
Jesus seemed pretty interested in calling out those who would condemn rather than telling everyone to toe the line. I envision Jesus doing a big forehead slap if he was watching that meeting.
Quote:I wish it was as easy as your question implies, but it isn’t. It just isn’t. I’m not defending cwald’s Stake President completely, but, especially with the latest information about the probability that the concern was expressed passionately by a family member, my take on the situation is now a WHOLE lot more charitable toward the SP than the first impression – and there’s a really, really, really important lesson in that for all of us.
Is the lesson that big brother is watching and you can’t trust your family once they have been assimilated into the Borg? That is mostly what I took away from the experience.
Quote:Is the lesson that big brother is watching and you can’t trust your family once they have been assimilated into the Borg? That is mostly what I took away from the experience.
My thoughts exactly.
Old-Timer wrote:
I wish it was as easy as your question implies, but it isn’t. It just isn’t. I’m not defending cwald’s Stake President completely, but, especially with the latest information about the probability that the concern was expressed passionately by a family member, my take on the situation is now a WHOLE lot more charitable toward the SP than the first impression – and there’s a really, really, really important lesson in that for all of us.I tend to think most people do the best they can with what they know at the time but you have to wonder why the SP acted as he did. If he was truly worried about cwald, why didn’t he simply put his arm around him and say “Your family has reached out to me and they are concerned about you. Is there anything we need to discuss? How are you doing?”
Okay folks, sorry for being late to the party, but I have been on the phone all night. What I am about to tell you is very important and could possibly affect all of you to some extent. I don’t mean to be melodramatic here, but this is not a good develop for us. And if this all turns out to be overkill, than I apologize in advance. Here is what I know. My brother is a stake President in Franklin County, which borders on Cache Valley. My home town is about 20 miles from Logan Utah. Why is this important? Because my brother’s stake is a stone throw from John Dehlin’s. Is it a coincidence that JD got called in this week to meet with the SP? I don’t think so. Now – from talking to my family members, there is no question that my brother has been in contact with my stake president, and this is what I know what is going on in the Cache Valley and Franklin County Stakes, that would cause my brother, and perhaps JD’s SP to react the way they have.
Apparently there is a group of Mormons in that area that have started a “movement” that is called the “Middle Way.” I don’t know the details, but my SP brother has disclosed to family members that it entails more than just “internet” and “blog” activity – but the internet groups are the genesis of the the movement. I had more than one family member tell me that “church discipline” is going to happen, and those involved in the “Middle Way” are going to be the focus of it. It makes sense now why the Stake Pres would call SLC and ask for my “file.”
Now, are they talking about our groups? Are they talking about NOM and StayLDS? I don’t know – but it certainly makes me wonder, knowing that JD got called in last week. There is no question they know about us and, at least in the Franklin county and Cache Valley areas, the Stake Leadership considers the groups who promote the “Middle Way” a threat to the church.
Sorry – but that is a fact my friends.
Also, one of the person’s involved in this middle way movement that my brother is “disciplining” is an old high school friend of mine. Only recently I have had contact with her and her husband, and they contacted me about information in regards to stayLDS and NOM. I don’t know if they are involved in this supposed “movement” of any kind, and if they are, I had no knowledge of it, or want no part of it (do you hear that SP? Yes – they are monitoring us, or at least me.) But obviously, the NOM and StayLDS websites are part of the stake investigations. The StayLDS website has John Dehlin’s name all over it.
Also – from talking to family members (not the SP brother), and I’m not exaggerating friends, one of my other brothers, and my mom both told me tonight that there is “no middle way in our church.” I even pleaded my cause as “I just have doubts and am looking for ways to reconcile and remain a part of the church.” and the response was, that because I am an RM and have gone through the temple, that excuse was not valid, and that they “would rather I go through church discipline and lose everything, so that perhaps I might realize how great the church church is when it’s gone.” Yes – my family WANTS me to be discipline by the church, because “they love me.” My mom, who probably speaks for the family and the SP brother, made the comment that if I “would read the book of mormon and pray more, and quit the whole “Middle Way” that I would have enough faith to believe it all and wouldn’t have to go through a church court to get my faith back.” My mom is only saying what the family is saying when they get together. My brother also told me that I have been the focus of ALL family gossip the last two weeks, and that, because of this group of Mormons in the area who supposedly have started a movement, they are VERY VERY concerned, and yes, they don’t feel like I have any place in the church. They consider me to be an “apostate and a threat.” They don’t think I have a “right” to be a part of this church if “I don’t believe in it.”
That’s part of what made the interview so weird to me — that the BP kept talking about church discipline. I just couldn’t grasp that concept for doubting and trying to find a middle way to stayLDS.
Now, I think my family is nuts – that’s why I live in Oregon, but, this family is in leadership in the Franklin/Cache area, and that is how they feel about NOMs and the middle way. I would be VERY CAREFUL using the term “Middle Way” at this time friends.
So knowing this information, I agree with Ray, and I will absolutely forgive my BP and SP for the way they reacted. I understand why they would be concerned with the phone call they received from my SP brother. It’s not there fault. There is going to be a fallout with myself and the SP/BP and I accept that. I seriously doubt I will come out of this unscathed. Fortunately my BP is a godly man, and will probably keep me from the church discipline that my family is pushing for, I think, but the emotional damage is ugly already. jwald is a mess – and the branch is going to suffer, and the damaged family relations might never be repaired, as well as my own stayLDS ambitions. I will not “quit” though. If the church doesn’t want me and doesn’t want my “leadership,” than they need to have the guts to come out and just say so. I expect that to happen this week.
Sorry to be such a downer. Be careful with the middle way lingo friends. Be careful.
I’m going to double post this over at NOM. I think they need to know, especially if they are in the Cache Valley/Franklin County areas. … I can’t even think of an appropriate response to this other than I think I just lost the rest of whatever belief I still had in this broken religion. We’ve become the Pharisees and apparently the reputation of the church is worth more than the members of our family. cwald, If leaders of the church are going to discipline every member who has doubts or struggles to reconcile various doctrines and practices, there are going to be empty pews and dwindling coffers.
Furthermore, the purpose of the church is to help the idividual, not the other way around. So if your Stake President and others are trying to protect the institution rather than save souls, I’d suggest they reread the intro to the new CHI Book 2.
Perhaps the words of Joseph Smith will also help:
Quote:“I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” (History of the Church 5:340)
- The topic ‘An ominous developement for Middle Way Mormons’ is closed to new replies.