An ominous developement for Middle Way Mormons

[Anonymous]

I don’t know; usually you warn people about things like this before you start bringing out the big guns — like Church discipline. Never have I heard anything official that links discipline to participating in online discussion forums like this, particularly when the motive is to stop people from leaving altogether.

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

Quote:

I don’t this his public rebuking of people can be seen as a pattern we should follow.

I didn’t say it is a pattern we should follow. I don’t believe that – at all. I just said Jesus probably would have done it that way, if we believe the actual accounts of his ministry. Fwiw, I don’t believe that WWJD is a good guide for what WE should do in a number of cases. He had his mission, and we have ours – and they aren’t the same thing in many ways.

I’ve said more than once that the best part of the Church’s organizational structure is the growth it allows average members who serve in leadership callings – but the lay ministry also is the worst part of the Church in too many instances.

Finally, I started my own online participation largely as a result of Elder Ballard pleading with the membership to not let others be the only voices defining Mormonism online. We are following the direct request of an apostle in the LDS Church by participating here, and we are involved in God’s work. I get it that some people can’t understand that, but it is what it is.

I’m sorry to hear about everything you are going through, cwald – but I am proud of your resolve to remain and live your life according to the revelation you feel you have received. I’m not sure how well I can express how deeply I feel that pride – the kind that Pres., Udhtdorf said recently it’s OK to have. 🙂

If you don’t mind a bit of advice, the following would be my response:

Quote:

I don’t believe in a “Middle Way” either. I believe in “My Way”, which is neither middle nor extreme. I want and intend to die a member of the LDS Church. I’m just trying to figure out everything possible in a way that makes sense to me, and I have faith God will continue to help me do that. I’m not part of an online movement or any other type of movement – and I am pretty sure I’m no different than you (cwald, your BP, your SP, Elder Holland, Pres. Uchtdorf, etc.) in that regard.

[Anonymous]

I’m not sure that saying I believe in “My Way” with capitals is the way to go. Ultimately, the Church wants us to believe in the LDS doctrinal way; GA’s have even made comments about how MY Way shouldn’t conflict with the priesthood way.

I think a better approach is to comment on the fact that until we see the face of God and have first-hand knowledge of the truth, we all have diversity and varying strengths in our beliefs. That people are at all different levels in their faith. Some have a strong faith in family history, others don’t. Some believe firmly in the WoW, others are struggling to gain a testimony. The blanket “if the BoM is true, JS is a prophet, therefore everything the Church says is to be taken as sure knowledge immediately” doesn’t work….this logic provides a starting point for people to build their testimony one principle at a time.

Cwald said that he had revelation he should stay in the Church, I would focus on that, as that appears to be one of the reasons he has stayed with it in spite of the concerns he has.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ray.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I’m not sure that saying I believe in “My Way” with capitals is the way to go. Ultimately, the Church wants us to believe in the LDS doctrinal way; GA’s have even made comments about how MY Way shouldn’t conflict with the priesthood way.

I think a better approach is to comment on the fact that until we see the face of God and have first-hand knowledge of the truth, we all have diversity and varying strengths in our beliefs. That people are at all different levels in their faith. Some have a strong faith in family history, others don’t. Some believe firmly in the WoW, others are struggling to gain a testimony. The blanket “if the BoM is true, JS is a prophet, therefore everything the Church says is to be taken as sure knowledge immediately” doesn’t work….this logic provides a starting point for people to build their testimony one principle at a time.

Cwald said that he had revelation he should stay in the Church, I would focus on that, as that appears to be one of the reasons he has stayed with it in spite of the concerns he has.

Yes. This is true. Thanks SD.

[Anonymous]

I would not use the phrase “My Way” because in the most recent GC,Elder Holland said this:

Quote:

No, in matters of discipleship the Church is not a fast-food outlet; we can’t always have it “our way.” Some day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ and that salvation can only come His way.

[Anonymous]

And, since we’re on it, I’ve never liked the reference to the Middle Way in the StayLDS How to Stay in the Church article. When you capitalize something, it becomes a formal, proper noun. While I think this is OK with philosophies like Universalism and other philosophies that are not affiliated with our religion, but to create one within the borders of the LDS philosophy never felt right given the emphasis on obedience and conformity that permeates our culture. I could see this as the starting point of a group of people who then take it one step further and start creating their own formal organization.

I think a better wording is to say you need to find your “own ways of coping” within Mormonism.

[Anonymous]

I too have of late been very interested in the JD situation:

trail blazer brings hard choices to church and JD – court of love?

It’s quite clear to me that for many years now that the church has silently support JD’s “stay LDS” ways. However JD’s recent news that he is no longer active, and his recent symposium in NYC is likely bringing the Church to some harder choices of how they are going to deal with a rapidly growing no-win situation.

I seriously doubt that the church has any interest in shutting down that likes of this board or bothering any of its members. In fact an even more inflammatory title now than “Middle way “ would likely be “I’m an Uncorrelated Mormon”.

John raised the bar by suggesting a group/society or whatever – loosely termed/related to “Reformed Judaism” (i.e. I’d call it very cultural and universalistic in nature).

Anyway if you have not listened to and looked at the power point, you should: Exploring the Future for Uncorrelated Mormons

I assume the church is on a close watch to see how this develops. One thing to note in JD’s oral presentation linked above, he notes that someone very high up, whom he could not disclose, related that the church currently has an 18% activity rate, and it was suggested that is based on once a month attendance.

As some of John’s last slides point out, as the following generations go forward, you or someone you know is going to be an “uncorrelated Mormon” and there is little to nothing that the Church can do about it.

It will be interesting to see if, over time, the church tends back to a smaller, tight niche group of “correlated” believers and physically isolates themselves from the more universalistic/liberal/uncorrelated individuals.

Oh wait, 18%, maybe they are already there?

[Anonymous]

cwald, big hug for ya…sorry it has been rough. Especially when it is people close in your family, I know from experience, that hurts the most.

For what it is worth, here is my take on it:

1) If there is some “Middle Way” movement going on, who knows what they’ve done, said, or threatened to do to disrupt the church. There very well could be valid reasons for such a middle way group that took ideas and turned them in to apostasy actions that warrant discipline.

2) Because you use the words “Middle Way”, doesn’t mean you are a part of that group, and so perhaps the fear has been built on faulty assumptions. If there was, perhaps the Apostles are really “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and not mormon? (sorry, just keeping it on the lighter side). The point is, perhaps puzzle pieces have been put together to write a story about you and a case built that you are scary to the church … but that doesn’t make it true. I don’t believe you are, from getting to know you.

Can you just confirm to your family or SP that you have no knowledge or affiliation with such a group, or any group trying to tear down the church? Perhaps that is all they need to know to relax and calm down. Don’t let two unrelated events or groups get conflated.

Is it even possible to enlighten your family or the SP that the mission of this website isn’t apostasy or movements? We are about support and help, when the church fails to in some situations. The site is called “STAY LDS”, after all (how is that against the church?). It has never been intended to be a movement…and so perhaps there is misunderstanding caused by unfounded fear (and we know who the author of fear is, right? Not God).

I can’t think of anything any of us are doing on this site that warrants disciplined action. However, I don’t know what these other groups are doing in those other counties, so I have no idea if they are part of some movement or not, nor do I care. I think the more open and honest you are, and the more you cooperate to help your family see they have misjudged you, and the more information you provide, then the more you can be a good influence in their lives. The more defensive and angry you get, the more that feeds their fears (however, realistically, I would be angry too…just have to choose how and when to show it so it doesn’t work against you).

But I don’t think anyone on this site needs to panic. That is just my opinion.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

…I had more than one family member tell me that “church discipline” is going to happen, and those involved in the “Middle Way” are going to be the focus of it…Now, are they talking about our groups? Are they talking about NOM and StayLDS? I don’t know – but it certainly makes me wonder, knowing that JD got called in last week. There is no question they know about us…obviously, the NOM and StayLDS websites are part of the stake investigations.

…My mom is only saying what the family is saying when they get together. My brother also told me that I have been the focus of ALL family gossip the last two weeks, and that, because of this group of Mormons in the area who supposedly have started a movement, they are VERY VERY concerned, and yes, they don’t feel like I have any place in the church. They consider me to be an “apostate and a threat.” They don’t think I have a “right” to be a part of this church if “I don’t believe in it.”…That’s part of what made the interview so weird to me — that the BP kept talking about church discipline. I just couldn’t grasp that concept for doubting and trying to find a middle way to stayLDS…Be careful with the middle way lingo friends. Be careful.

Sounds like a real witch hunt. It makes me glad that I haven’t ever used my real name or enough personal details to positively identify me on these blogs and not just because I don’t want to deal with the bishop and stake president grilling me about being an “apostate” simply for criticizing the Church but if some of my family saw some of the things I’ve said they would really start to gossip about me behind my back. As far as I’m concerned the less any TBMs have to know about my honest beliefs the better.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Sounds like a real witch hunt.

Let’s all just be a bit careful jumping to conclusions on this delicate situation for cwald. The purpose of this thread is to support cwald, and we don’t know all the facts in this case.

I know my bishop is a busy guy…and has more important things than searching blogs to see what I’m up to. Secondly, we moderate the site…so I would be surprised if we let anything get posted here that would be grounds for any disciplinary action.

Only if there is a concern raised to the church elsewhere will there be possible times family or church leaders would want to see if the concerns have merit based on what they can see on a website or something. Cwald’s concerns were raised by his family, not from people searching this site to try to find apostates. It just doesn’t work that way in the church.

Let’s stay supportive for cwald here. My heart goes out to you cwald, because I’m sure it is painful and scary and makes you mad. But, from my point of view, this could blow over once people get the right info from you.

My biggest question is: What are they afraid of that makes them so concerned about you and your situation? (Should you ask them that directly?)

[Anonymous]

No one expects the Utah inquistion.

sorry, it’s the only thing I could think of when I read all of this.

I too have a family that gossips about me, drives me insane. If I had committed half the sins I have supposedly committed my life would be a lot more interesting. Mine started when I was a teenager, I was accused of smoking at a bar and some one had seen me there. Never have figured out who that some one was, never been to said bar and hadn’t tried smoking at that time. But I can say it did make me mad enough to say fine if I am such a sinner, then so be it. I guess for me it was I was told I was the bad seed for so long, that I finally said ok I’m the bad seed. Being called out on heresay or even because of questioning is not Christlike. I doubt that Christ would be handing out stones. He did not call out sinners, he called out hypocrits and those who lied to the sheep with false doctrine and those who charged to worship in the temple.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I think my BP will protect me from any kind of “discipline,” and I would be surprised if the SP does the whole witch hunt after the BP assures him that I’m okay. Obviously I will be released from my callings, which is fine I guess. Probably a good thing I don’t want an TR, because that obvoiously is not going to happen now, and I pretty well have lost all creditability I might have had with the stake and branch.

Obviously my already crappy family relations are shot.

I’m guessing this is local issue back in Cache Valley, which is where my family lives, and hopefully it will die out. I have NO DOUBT this is related to John Dehlin’s mormon stories and recent remarks by some folks that he was pushing for a reformed movement of Middle Way Mormons. Which he has publicly denied and I believe that.

I’m just tired of it all – you know, you guys debate about what words to use, what we can say and what we can’t say. Which vernacular is acceptable and what isn’t, what will sound apostate and what will be deemed okay. That’s all good – but come on. I am so TIRED of having to walk on egg shells all the time around family and at church. Now my family and the church will use all that kind of stuff against me, all those “slip ups” and honest moments that happen. I am just so TIRED.

[Anonymous]

Heber13,

I agree that no one should panic. It’s hard not to feel a little frustrated for cwald, though. Ugh. Something must be in the water out there :S

MnG

[Author]

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