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Brian Johnston wrote:
I like what Ray said. I’m a Mormon, not a hyphenated Mormon. I’m on the same team. We are on the same team here.
You forgot to say period full stop!
😆 It’s cool to answer that recommend question “no”. I always answer it “yes”; life’s full of twisted affiliations. They give me a recommend anyway so far.
Brian Johnston wrote:I’m a
HERETICnot an apostate. Sheeesh! They need to get their pejoratives correct 🙄 get it right…Oddly enough, I have on occasion been called a heretic, an apostate, and even “an enemy of Christ” for teaching nothing more or less than what has been taught by church presidents, general authorities, the standard works and the temple drama.
I think I’m 100% orthodox. It’s the rest of the church who’ve gone astray.
😆 mercyngrace wrote:Brian Johnston wrote:I’m a
HERETICnot an apostate. Sheeesh! They need to get their pejoratives correct 🙄 get it right…Oddly enough, I have on occasion been called a heretic, an apostate, and even “an enemy of Christ” for teaching nothing more or less than what has been taught by church presidents, general authorities, the standard works and the temple drama.
I think I’m 100% orthodox. It’s the rest of the church who’ve gone astray.
😆 And now … drum roll … M&G – is definately “uncorrelated”!
There add that one to your list
Sorry M&G … your old school orthodox/uncorrelated … if that’s not the same thing??
I don’t know what I am, timpanogos, but I know what I believe. And sometimes they even teach it in church. Haha! mercyngrace wrote:
I think I’m 100% orthodox. It’s the rest of the church who’ve gone astray.😆
:clap: nice!mercyngrace wrote:I don’t know what I am, timpanogos, but I know what I believe. And sometimes they even teach it in church. Haha!
good one!
I love you m&g! Thank you for all that you do to uplift others. You are successful in this and often a god send.
cwald, I don’t often venture outside the History and Doctrine forum. I wish you well, and I’m glad this turned out good for you. Heretic is such an interesting term. I remember my wife being concerned that I called myself a heretic. When I explained that Jesus and Joseph Smith were heretics, with great surprise she said, “oh, you mean it in a GOOD way?” I’m not sure she thinks heretics are good, but I think they serve a useful purpose, and I try to emulate the good heretics, not the apostates.
What is the difference between a heretic and an apostate in your view? My take: A “heretic” is someone who believes (some) things differently than the accepted norm.
An “apostate” is someone who opposes and actively preaches and fights against the accepted norm – who tries in a very real way to supplant the accepted norm with his or her own beliefs.
There are WAY more “heretics” in the world and in the Church than most people realize, even though most of them are such in relation to only a few things; there are relatively few apostates, and I haven’t seen anything in any of the writings of the vast majority of participants here that I would classify as apostacy.
Frankly, there have been a few “apostates” who have tried to register and participate here, but that’s not what we do here. Those are the only people we moderate and ban actively. This site simply isn’t a place for apostacy, and we won’t let it become that type of place.
Dear Cwald, and Everyone, I have been actively reading this thread and giving it much thought. I have always liked you cwald and your geniuneness and honesty. You are just the kind of man Jesus would love and even picked as one of his apostles. It blew my mind to read that some believe this is an apostate group. I still remember the day I joined this group. I had been in a fast and testimony meeting crying so hard that day wondering how I could ever stay in this church anymore. I prayed and fasted that day for God to help me. That afternoon my Danish friend told me about Staylds and I knew it was a direct answer to prayer. So, would they say that Satan answered my prayer? Or if it was God, does it mean he loves this group?
I think the term “non-traditional believer” might be a better term than heretic. The term heretic has too many Catholic burning-at-the-stake implications that would lead others to confuse the term heretic, with the term apostate. In fact, I like the term “divergent thinker” because it is even less provocative than the term “non-traditional believer”. I would say a heretic is a little stronger than just believing things differently. A Heretic is a nonconformist, someone that dissents from accepted beliefs…which is to say they go against common accepted dogmas or beliefs, which has a different connotation to me than just believing differently. Yes, to go against beliefs is believing differently, but believing differently has the connotation of a different interpretation or understanding of something while still go along with or accepting the teaching … while a heretic is againstthe teaching or doesn’t believe in the teaching at all. But I believe heretic is around individual teachings or beliefs, while still remaining in the religion. Roman Catholic heretics were burned at the stake for certain beliefs they went against…but they were still Roman Catholics…they were still on the inside.
Apostate is the step to separate from the religion, or defect. No longer being Roman Catholic, completely fighting against catholocism, or fighting against catholocism from the outside.
I think you can be a heretic about some things and stay in the church. I think all apostates are heretics, but not all heretics are apostates. Certainly in the mormon culture, heretics are not looked at as “good things” because mormons value obedience to the prophet, although I may be a heretic about that belief…as I think MH is a good guy in the church, IMO.
Maybe there is another example on the Word of Wisdom to point out the differences: 1. Believing members interpret it differently: One person drinks Red Bull and doesn’t believe it is included in the WoW but upholds the belief that abstinence of coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol and drugs are explicit commandments from God. (this is an example of believing differently, but still conforming to standards and not being a heretic)
2. A
hereticdoesn’t believe D&C 89 was intended to be interpreted the way we practice it as mormons. They may still obey it to stay temple worthy, or they don’t care about it and don’t live it, but in belief, they go against the teaching that God commanded abstinence of substances in our temple rec interviews, and doesn’t see the scriptures support such a belief. A heretic doesn’t believe it is inspired from God, but that is only one teaching in all of mormonism. The heretic stays mormon, despite not believing the WoW. 3. An
apostatewill take the beliefs of the heretic, and no longer want to associate with an organization that preaches members must conform to it. They actively disobey the word of wisdom and take it further to leave the church over it, and preach to others on the Internet or in person all their beliefs about the how the church is wrong about the Word of Wisdom, and therefore wrong about all the claims of a divinely led institution. The apostate wants to be on the outside of Mormonism, and actively fights against it. I’m probably a heretic. It makes others I know uncomfortable or worried for me … but ultimately, the church doesn’t need to take action on me as I’m not actively a threat to it (I just won’t be getting any leadership callings because of it). Apostates have action behind beliefs…and they do need to be separated from the flock so they don’t lead others astray.
I believe this is what cwald’s leaders are realizing, and why they are not going to take any action. Cwald’s family may be worried about his heresy, but the leaders don’t find any grounds for labeling it “apostasy” and it will not require disciplinary action. (I would also add…no grounds for labeling him gay either
A heretic has a different testimony and she is vocal. An apostate forsakes the group and she is vocal. Generally, it seems prophetesses/prophets are heretics, not apostates. You wouldn’t call TSM a heretic, would you Tom? The LDS definition of apostasy seems to differ from those suggested here: “Losing confidence in Church leaders, criticizing them, and neglecting any duty required by God lead to apostasy.”
Here is how to avoid the nasty bitter fruit:
http://lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-smith/chapter-27-beware-the-bitter-fruits-of-apostasy?lang=eng&query=Road+apostasy ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-smith/chapter-27-beware-the-bitter-fruits-of-apostasy?lang=eng&query=Road+apostasy
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