- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
timpanogos wrote:
“Losing confidence in Church leaders, criticizing them, and neglecting any duty required by God
lead toapostasy.” Well, I don’t think that is the definition of apostasy. It is just warning of actions that lead to it.
Smoking leads to cancer…doesn’t mean it is the same thing.
I think it is important to understand the difference. Heresy can
lead toapostasy, but they are not the same, nor does it alwayslead to apostasy. from the talk: “There is a superior intelligence bestowed upon such as obey the Gospel with full purpose of heart, which, if sinned against, the apostate is left naked and destitute of the Spirit of God, and he is, in truth, nigh unto cursing, and his end is to be burned. When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened, and then, no marvel, if all their power should be enlisted against the truth, and they, Judas-like, seek the destruction of those who were their greatest benefactors.”
1. criticize leaders
2. lose the light.
3. become son/daughter of Satan.
Just that easy.
timpanogos wrote:1. criticize leaders
2. lose the light.
3. become son/daughter of Satan.
That is one possible scenario (and an extreme, if you ask me, used as a scare tactic).
Another possible scenario:
1. Criticize leaders
2. Become more enlightened
3. Come closer to God
I don’t think it is so easy. Life is pretty complex, with plenty of paradox to go around.
:wtf: Back in the day, when the Church was tiny and just beginning to be established, those things pretty much did lead to apostacy. almost. every. time. Just sayin’, context is important.
There also is a line in that lesson that is important – but easy to overlook. One of the quotes talks about someone who does all of the things you listed while maintaining that he personally is righteous. Iow, the person says:
Quote:“You are wrong and going astray, but I am right and not going astray. Repent and change your ways to follow me instead of any other leader(s).”
That is the very definition of apostacy we’ve mentioned here.
Which part is the apostasy:
Old-Timer wrote:“You are wrong and going astray, but I am right and not going astray.
Or…
Old-Timer wrote:Repent and change your ways to follow me instead of any other leader(s).”
Is it both? Or am I allowed to say the first one, as long as I don’t start trumpeting the second?
Quote:“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Would not this concept apply?
Of course this is well off the beaten path of a dictionary type definition, but more of the one instilled into some of us by our upbringing.
SilentDawning wrote:…I think many TBM would consider people who frequent this site, like myself, as totally apostate…I have one close friend in a different state in whom I confided about my conversations here on StayLDS…He took a gander at this site and told me, for the first time in 12 years, that
he thinks I am now officially apostate, even though at the time I could answers all the TR questions with integrityThe one I would get caught on, he suggested would be “do you associate with any groups or individuals that teach ideas contrary to the Church” (paraphrased). Some of our ideas are more liberal than what you find in the mainstream at Church…
As a result of sharing my involvement here, he flatly told me I was apostate, and even called me to explain what led to my apostasy so he could use it in a talk on preventing apostasy.So, my experience tells me there are some who see little value attached to what we do here. In fact, they may even see it as a deleterious influence. Anyone that thinks this site is for anti-Mormon apostates should try reading some other forums like Flak and RfM for some perspective. I don’t see what is wrong with having an open marketplace of ideas where people are allowed to express their honest opinions and concerns without being censored for not always agreeing with some pre-determined list of expected beliefs. If someone doesn’t agree with me then they are free to show why I am wrong. Seriously, if everything the Church teaches is true then it seems like they shouldn’t feel quite so threatened and offended by different opinions because they would have the moral high ground they could feel confident about but instead they act insecure as if members’ vulnerable testimonies need to be protected at all costs.
Quote:Which part is the apostasy:
Quote:“You are wrong and going astray, but I am right and not going astray.
Or…
Repent and change your ways to follow me instead of any other leader(s).”
Is it both? Or am I allowed to say the first one, as long as I don’t start trumpeting the second?
Both, frankly.
The first is egotistical and sets the person up as a paragon of righteousness as opposed to those who are sinners. That attitude, at the very least, is a sign of arrogance – and arrogance is one of the things that is a characteristic of apostacy. It’s the “going astray” part that is the key, however.
However, actually demanding that others see it a particular way that is not in harmony with the leadership of an organization and insisting that others leave that leadership and follow you instead? Yeah, that’s the heart of “full” apostacy – and it’s the same no matter the organization or “camp” that is being discussed.
If you’ll notice, in all of my comments, there is a common thread of “I see through my glass, darkly” – and it’s important to me to maintain that attitude, since it’s the best antidote to the type of pride that leads to apsotacy of any kind or degree.
I don’t care what any of you think or believe or what kind of lingo you use to describe the purpose of this site — I’m telling from first hand accounts that the leadership and mainstream LDS members in the Cache Valley area DO CONSIDER THIS AN APOSTATE WEBSITE.Everything from the mission statement to the dialogue in the forums. That is a fact.
THAT IS A FACT.
My association on this board,
is consideredto be apostate behavior from the leadership in the Logan/Franklin county stakes. That is a fact.(I hope that is not considered an apostate statement – just clarifying the “dangers” and the reality of belonging to the StayLDS family, so these members don’t get blind sided by the accusations that I have come under.)
My story is not going to be the last. I have more information, but my brothers accused me of using it to further my purposed on my “apostate” and “anti-mormon StayLDS website”, so I will not betray their trust in that regards.
The “Middle Way” concept is considered apostate by the local leadership (area authority) in Cache Valley area. That is all I will say. Good luck friends.
I understand that, to the degree I can without being involved in it, cwald. However, I’m not talking about any local leaders. I’m talking about the overall LDS Church leadership and the terms in their purest definitions.
Also, it’s important for us to make it very clear that we simply are not part of any “movement” – and we are not associated with any particular “type” of Mormon. That’s the heart of what we are saying in the last series of comments in this thread, and it ‘s legitimate and honest and accurate. There’s no “subversion” here of any kind. Period.
There have been other sites of which that can’t be said accurately, and that difference is why I’ve never participated at length on any of them. If some people can’t understand that, so be it – but I can be found and reached very easily if someone wants to talk with me. If not, fine – but I have never hidden anything I’ve ever done in the blogging world at large, right down to never using a pseudonymn anywhere expect my own blog (and that’s only because the name I use there is what my kids and their friends call me in person – including, ironically for this comversation, those who have been introduced to and joined the LDS Church as a result of their association with me and my family).
Ray, I know that. I know this is not an apostate website. I also KNOW that the
area authoritywho is over the Cache Valley/Franklin County is not convinced, and the SPs in those areas have been contacted and they are concerned about the “middle way” rhetoric that this site espouses. My SP brothers knows all about this site folks and my involvement here, and even that I have quoted some of my other brothers comments from letters in certain threads. He is a good man, but don’t for a second think he doesn’t consider our activity here to be “apostate.”
If I am wrong or mistaking the churches stance about this site – please tell us so brother.
Cwald, before I read your emphatic message, I already had in mind to say what I am saying here. When it comes right down to it, the word “apostate” is nothing more than a fighting word like “cult”. It means traitor, bad guy, dupe of satan, enemy of the saints. That’s how it was used in the early days of the church.
Wikipedia (that apostate, cultic encyclopedia) says:
Wikipedia wrote:Apostasy ( /əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), a defection or revolt, from ἀπό, apo, “away, apart”, στάσις, stasis, “stand”, “standing”) is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy apostatizes and is an apostate. These terms have a pejorative implication in everyday use. The term is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person’s former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation. The term is sometimes also used by extension to refer to renunciation of a non-religious belief or cause, such as a political party, brain trust, or, facetiously, a sports team.
timpanogos wrote:The LDS definition of apostasy seems to differ from those suggested here:
“Losing confidence in Church leaders, criticizing them, and neglecting any duty required by God lead to apostasy.”
Please parse the words. Those things are not apostasy. They lead to apostasy. Please return with a definition of the apostasy that results from those things.
Tom Haws wrote:Please parse the words. Those things are not apostasy. They lead to apostasy. Please return with a definition of the apostasy that results from those things.
thought I did … see subsequent post quoting the same talk linked
cwald wrote:Ray, I know that. I know this is not an apostate website.
I also KNOW that the
area authoritywho is over the Cache Valley/Franklin County is not convinced, and the SPs in those areas have been contacted and they are concerned about the “middle way” rhetoric that this site espouses. My SP brothers knows all about this site folks and my involvement here, and even that I have quoted some of my other brothers comments from letters in certain threads. He is a good man, but don’t for a second think he doesn’t consider our activity here to be “apostate.”
If I am wrong or mistaking the churches stance about this site – please tell us so brother.
Barring the existence of some breakaway group that is meeting in real life and encouraging separation from the church and rejection of church leadership, I can’t imagine why this site would even be cause for concern other than by loving leaders who are moved by compassion toward their struggling fellows.
This site is populated with a group of loving, Christ-like individuals who are supportive of one another and better exemplify the teachings of Christ than many BOM thumping, no questioning allowed, LDS sites I’ve visited.
One of the reasons I don’t like any divisive construct like “middle way” is that it really does set up an idea that there is “another way” that is in opposition to “the established way”. I don’t believe that, since I believe we all have to work within the overall framework of our Gospel understanding and find what works for us. That’s not a “middle way”. I don’t believe in a group movement that constitutes another way.I belive in what the LDS Church encourages – agency and using the Restored Gospel to understand and draw closer to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as an individual while helping others within the family of God to do the same thing. Every local leader I’ve had since I started blogging has known about my online involvement – and I have been approached “negatively” only once, in a situation where I really did make a mistake in posting a sarcastic comment on a popular group blog that some people didn’t understand as sarcasm. Some people misconstrued my words and used them in a way in which they were not intended that actually did “hurt the Church” in a way – and I appreciated finding out about it, since I obviously was not aware about it until it was pointed out to me.
By Common Consent and Times & Seasons are about as “tame” as it gets for large group blogs in the Bloggernacle (since they actively moderate and ban the most vocal critics of the Church) – but I’ve had some people tell me that the people who participate there are a bunch of apostates. There are serving Bishops and Relief Society Presidents and Stake Presidents and Young Women Leaders and High Councilors
ad infinitumwho are regular commenters and admins on those sites, and yet they still get characterized as apostate by some members and local leaders. I can’t control what other people think and say about this site – but I do have a partial say in what this site actually is. I take that seriously, and all I’m saying is that this is not an apostate site – no matter what some others might think. We are trying to help people StayLDS, to whatever degree is possible for them – which is the very opposite of any legitimate definition of “apostate”. I understand that not everyone will understand that, but I can’t change that. I only can do what I can with the mission of this site – and that mission is not an apostate one. Period.
I know you understand that, cwald, and I understand and appreciate the warning, but let’s go ahead and let that aspect of the discussion drop, ok? I think it’s run it’s course for now.
- The topic ‘An ominous developement for Middle Way Mormons’ is closed to new replies.