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I’m new here, and I love that this forum exists. Anyways, I’ve watched many of my family members (immediate and extended) leave the LDS church. All in varying degrees and for different reasons. Some for homosexual issues, some for lifestyle reasons, and quite a few because they “found a better way”. I say this because it started with one, my aunt, who has literally created her own new doctrine and now has quite the following. I’ve run into to many people with these new found beliefs and as much as each individual would like to argue that they are original, they just aren’t. I’m beginning to see a pattern everywhere I go, most especially among ex-mormons, with almost the same doctrine. Since my aunt left the church, she’s done her very best to convert every other family member to her following and it seems (from my outside point of view) that she’s taking on the role of savior, meanwhile cutting down any belief in Christ as savior and tearing apart christian values.
Joseph Smith said this: “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” It’s true. EVERY TIME.
The point I mostly want to bring up is the anger I have seen accompany every person I know who has left the church. I’ve watched it over and over and over. Family member after family member, friend after friend. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve seen it. I watch it creep up on them, and it might be about one small thing. Sexism in the church, polygamy, guilt that accompanies belief in sin, tithing being a tax, spending more time in callings than at home with the family, being made to feel guilty for saying no to callings, modesty, homosexuality, flaws in mormon history, etc etc. But it begins there, and then it grows and compounds. The individual comes to a point of either humbling themselves and turning back to the church, or they leave. And 9 times out of 10, they leave. But it never stops there… it gets worse. Now, not ONE of my friends or family members (well over 30 individuals), can say a kind thing about the church. And if they ever do, it must be a long with 10 horrible things.
I know that there are problems in the church. There are problems everywhere. But when I have a discussion about, say, an issue in the baptist church, with another individual who is completely unaffiliated with the baptist church, that kind of anger is non-existent. SO WHY then, do people need to tear the church apart? It’s not like the church intentionally hurts people, or has ulterior motives to ruin peoples lives. I have a friend who at first, told me her trouble with the temple and the ordinances done there, but continued to go to church because she still believed in the book of mormon. After a while, she realized it was hard to only believe in part of it, and began to find flaws with everything else. Finally she left the church. I was thrilled though to find someone who seemed to have little to no anger towards the church. She had a little, but it seemed that over all she had good feelings towards it and I thought for a second she might be the first of my friends to live on as an ex-mormon with no anger towards the church. The next time I saw her however, whatever anger she had had accumulated 100 fold and now, 4 years since leaving the church, every word that leaves her mouth about the church is hateful and spiteful. How do people expend THAT much energy to hate something that isn’t even a part of their lives anymore?
Having said all of this, I wanted to begin discussion on what other peoples experiences have been with this accumulating anger that accompanies leaving the church? Personally, I have experienced that anger. I began to slowly find flaws with everything I could. I began to be angry at little things and at people that I didn’t even know just because they were bishops or leaders in the church. I thought hateful things towards other members. I stopped going to church and couldn’t stand the thoughts of it, and found myself putting myself “above” other members. I began to have a prideful sense of my situation because I was not “brainwashed” like everyone else. I mean, at least I QUESTIONED the words of the prophet.
But I’ve come to a place of humbling myself and realizing that even if these issues I have with the church might be founded on something, this anger is founded on nothing. There is no reason for it. And yet I have spent more than my fair share of energy hating something that brings so much good to this world. I am now trying to find my way back to being a fully committed member, and it’s hard, especially when that anger comes back again. Anger is a silent killer. With extended time in a state of anger, people become hard and also in many cases physically ill. Where does this anger come from? Why can’t people who leave the church avoid feeling that way? Why does it seem to always accompany the choice of leaving the church? Any thoughts?
I don’t have time to respond fully, but I want to ask for gentle responses to this post. It’s a valid question that deserves thoughtful responses. Anger often doesn’t actually have a basis, and there are different kinds of anger. One kind is not really anger but is a protective (?) reaction that goes with some other emotion, fear or hurt perhaps. I am not an expert on anger, but I have experienced it and I have experienced it in and associated with the church. I feel no need to tear down the church, and in fact quite the opposite and try very hard to do no harm when it comes to the church. That doesn’t mean I don’t have some residual anger. Based on my own experiences and what I hear many people here say, most who have anger are angry because they have felt duped or deceived by the church. Sometimes that has to do with historical things that the church tried to keep secret for decades (but is doing much better at being open about now), and sometimes it has to do with doctrinal issues. Mine is much more the latter. When I discovered that what I had been taught and wholeheartedly believed for years really isn’t true and correct, or more correctly don’t work like the church teaches they do, I was very hurt and part of the hurt manifested itself in anger – and still does. As a convert, I would question the very premise that there is usually anger upon leaving the Church. Most converts who leave are not angry, just apathetic or perhaps a little disillusioned. In my experience, anger comes from two sources: converts who feel they were promised a lot because this is a Church that holds up a very high ideal; and lifelong members who are angry that they were taught many things for years that they now feel are untrue–and for this latter group some of those “untrue” things are objectively untrue in terms of truths about LDS history that the Church whitewashes. There are also a lot of non-practicing lifelong Mormons who for all practical purposes will never practice the religion again but are not angry. There is also quite a bit of anger among those practicing in the Church, which I have felt myself, and I think that comes from the reality that the LDS system is so controlling and at times dysfunctional. No other religion except maybe Catholicism has such a visible institution for you to focus your anger on. But for Catholics, that institution of the church isn’t anything like the LDS institution. Catholics aren’t being told how to dress, how to store food, how to groom themselves, what music to listen to, who to date, how to raise your kids. Protestants and evangelicals have little to focus their anger on: very little organized church, if you don’t like the pastor just move on to another congregation. Same with Islam, Buddhism, and other faiths.
tryinghard wrote:know that there are problems in the church. There are problems everywhere. But when I have a discussion about, say, an issue in the baptist church, with another individual who is completely unaffiliated with the baptist church, that kind of anger is non-existent.
I think that anger can be proportional to one’s original level of commitment. In the case of the Baptist church the anger is non-existent because the individual was unaffiliated with the church, there’s no investment so there’s little to be upset about.
I’ve been to many, many churches and the level of commitment required by the LDS church is orders of magnitude greater. After all Joseph Smith did say: “A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation;” I believe that original, intense level of involvement is the reason why many people that have decided to leave the church can get ensnared in the trap of anger and bitterness. Part of it might be difficulty in dealing with the realization that precious resources like time, money, and emotion have turned to ash. I see the anger as natural, almost a necessary evil in making a true transition. Anger will come for many, the challenge is finding a way to move past it.
tryinghard wrote:Joseph Smith said this: “That man who rises up to condemn others,
finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” Joseph Smith also said: “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” The only reason I bring this up is because a part of my family is Presbyterian and they were
veryaware of this quote when I joined the church. To them their church is true and Joseph Smith is the detractor. It’s all about perspective, it all depends on who is saying what about which church. 
That said I realize that your quote from Joseph Smith is more focused on being humble. I don’t believe that Joseph was one to puff himself up, there are multiple sections of D&C that are evidence of that. I just brought up my quote because of the personal impact it had on me and my family. Joseph Smith may have initially found fault with all religions of his day but he looked past that and dedicated his life to taking the best parts of everything that surrounded him to use toward building a better society. A pretty good goal.
These days it’s all about the fruits. I want my faith transition to produce good fruits so I want to focus on those activities or that mindset that will produce good fruit. Anger is not a good fruit, I believe that holding on to anger is unhealthy. The way I’ve tried to move past it is to look for the good in everything, specifically finding good in the things that would otherwise make me angry… like the church, and there is an immense amount of good to find in the church.
TH, It’s a great question. I’ve thought about this a lot recently. I think, first, that you made a very true observation:
tryinghard wrote:when I have a discussion about, say, an issue in the baptist church, with another individual who is completely unaffiliated with the baptist church, that kind of anger is non-existent.
The wellspring of anger lies in the fact that we committed so much to the Church and then feel cheated out of a part of our lives. Talking about somebody else’s religion is not as emotive because we haven’t committed anything to the Baptist Church. I know a guy that was raised Catholic, became a born-again Christian in high school and eventually became an atheist. He harbors a certain amount of anger for both of his earlier religions.In pointing this out, however, you have also alluded to a possible remedy. I know that for me, I find it very very helpful to accept the LDS Church as a religion that stands on its own, without me. I detach myself from it emotionally, and suddenly, I can see it as sort of somebody else’s religion. In doing so, I often find that my guard drops a bit and it is more palatable.
But I do experience anger. For me, I think the one issue for which I have bonafide anger is tithing. I greatly lament and actively fight against some other issues (polygamy, gender roles, opposition of same-sex marriage), but I don’t feel anger about those issue. I think the reason that I experience anger with the subject of tithing is because I believe that the Church knowingly demands that people pay far far more than is reasonable, and then directly benefits from the massive sacrifice. In other words, I believe the Church is fully culpable. In other areas, I feel less or no anger, because I think the Church is simply holding up what it believes to be true and right.
One specific case in which I have observed a lot of anger toward the Church for disaffected members is Fast & Testimony Meeting. Many here have expressed that they just can’t stomach it and that their blood pressure rises when they hear people declare “I know…” Why this affects some people so much is a bit of a mystery to me. I’ve wondered if it has to do with seeing ourselves in the speaker… the part of ourselves that we now see as misguided, and committed to something we now no longer believe… the part of ourselves we wish we could save from “false” hope.
Lastly, let me just add that when I first experienced my faith crisis, I found an ex-mormon forum online. I would read what others had to say and I was disappointed to find so much vitriol aimed at the Church and at the Church members. I think the distaste of that experience did a lot to help me seek out a more peaceful path. I didn’t want to associate with people like that, quite frankly. People in the Church are very good people. Quirky? Sure… a lot of times. But, I cannot abide attacks against people in the Church. They are doing what they believe in, and I’ve learned to celebrate it. Feeling anger is natural, but living an angry life is not. I’m with you, TH, I think anger has no long-term positive benefit. The good news is that it doesn’t need to be that way, and I think this site is all the evidence we need.
Wow, a lot of very insightful posts! What about the role of the manipulativeness of the Church in provoking anger? As I was showering this morning, I reflected upon memories of my time as a “golden investigator.” I remember the flashes of anger that I had even before I was baptized, because gung-ho missionaries were telling me that I had to serve a mission (at age 24) and get married in the Temple (sans non-LDS parents). And I remember feeling a little angry that they saved mention of tithing to the end instead of telling me upfront. There were so many things that were manipulative about the conversion process, and they are mirrored for lifelong members who are manipulated through callings, testimonies (as OON points out, using them to convince others), love-bombing, and many other methods. No one likes to feel manipulated. Hi, tryinghard – I’m glad you’re here and I’ve thought about your question this morning. I know there is a lot of anger out there on LDS boards, but, for instance, my non-practicing siblings didn’t see the process through to name removal and they aren’t antagonistic or obsessed. I’ve been active my whole life and don’t think that’s going to change.
I see a lot of negative emotions and reactions: anger, sadness, regret, hurt. I’m sad that I’ve spent my whole life believing in a God that I now don’t think exists. A defining moment in my childhood was when I discovered polygamy (BY’s, not JS’s) and turned my head towards my mother. Who else did I have to ask? I learned from her that what a woman wants and desires is not important, that a lifetime of faithful marriage and motherhood would likely result in immortal disappointment. That women need to take consolation where they can find it because God’s purposes for them involve heartbreak. I lived a lifetime being afraid and wary of God. What a loss. I hope I’m on a better path now towards a God who was there all along. I feel like someone on a reality show who is reunited with a long-lost family member in old age.
Do much good post and points here. OMO said Quote:One specific case in which I have observed a lot of anger toward the Church for disaffected members is Fast & Testimony Meeting. Many here have expressed that they just can’t stomach it and that their blood pressure rises when they hear people declare “I know…” Why this affects some people so much is a bit of a mystery to me. I’ve wondered if it has to do with seeing ourselves in the speaker… the part of ourselves that we now see as misguided, and committed to something we now no longer believe… the part of ourselves we wish we could save from “false” hope.
Very insightful.The easiest way to understand is just to drop the superficial outside layer of the problem “the church” and get to the cite of it.
Do people like to be told (half the story in a situation)? Most would feel betrayal and lack of trust in that.
Do people like to put a massive amount of sacrifice into something that is often thankless?
Do people like to put to many eggs in the same basket after it breaks?
Do people like to told that who they are is only worry something if they confirm to something that they are bit or is not genially them? That is serving that is outsides of themselves?
Most find the pretending and out of comfort zone for so many hours to be draining regardless of who does it or where it comes from.
When people search for themselves and what they have to offer do they like to be told repeatedly that they(what is uniquely them) have to offer isn’t wanted or needed but a person with a different personality is…because it’s what the system needs?
Do people like to be belittled(told that what they care about isn’t really important but here is what is)that happens to serve the system promoting it?
They may take it out on the church because it’s very visible.
My friends in other faiths, if they try something and it isn’t working out well for their family in positive energy and the Rabbi, priest, insist they need to do it.
They leave and move into the next synagogue, church, or what ever until they find someone not doing that. That they feel safe and comfortable their. They don’t try to force it endlessly trying to make it to work. It’s wasted energy to them in any situation, church , work or family.
Most are tired of metaphorically beating themselves up or throwing themselves against a metaphorical wall.
It’s not about the church, it’s about how people like to be treated. Treat them how they want to be treated and they are happy and stay. Belittle them and insist and you have someone who will get very angry over time without any proper training how to relieve the stress and anger.
It doesn’t come naturally and it’s something not taught to many people so it’s not surprising.
If the church, family, work want happy productive employes they each have to find out how to compromise and work with people individually on each situation. Failing that, well, you get what happens.
People like to be treated a certain way that helps them stay positive about life and themselves. If not, their will be quit naturally growing depression, anger, resentment, hopelessness, regardless of who is doing it or where it comes from.
Agree 100% that anger towards the church is unhealthy and unproductive. I do think it’s understandable, though. I’m still very active in the church and I think it has many positives to offer me and my family, which is why I stick around. That being said, I genuinely feel that part of my teenage years was wasted and part of my marriage struggles because the church. I used to feel tremendous guilt piled on me from high level church leaders. As a teenage boy I struggled with what Boyd K. Packer and my father taught be about masturbation (or self abuse in church circles). I fasted, prayed, skipped sacrament and agonized about this and wasted energy over it. I won’t go into this much, but my wife lied to me about some things she did pre-marriage – and which I didn’t find out until well into marriage – which is still occasionally hurtful (not that she did them but that she lied) and I attribute some of that to the church.
Like was said earlier, it’s the feeling that I wasted parts of my life trusting in an institution that I foolishly supposed was perfect. It’s especially bothersome because I think there’s a very real possibility that this life is it and there is no afterlife. If that’s the case, that’s time I’ll never get back.
Great question. My husband and I were just talking about this yesterday. Our thoughts are still new, but maybe they will add to this discussion. For us the anger came as time kept increasing and the problem areas kept getting larger. Initially we both thought this faith crisis was some sort of Abrahamic Test where it has a time limit and a light at the end of the tunnel. Sure it might be a long tunnel and test, but we were all gung ho for it. We completely believed that a day would come when we would finish this journey and be enlightened souls that could take this experience and use it to help grow, increase, uplift – a religion and people we had loved and embraced.
Now nearly a decade later, that idea is completely gone. Traditional practicing members see us as the problem, we cause more pain than help in our ward when we try to participate. The guidelines for how a person is to perform are very set, stringent, and unwavering in a large sense, yes there are a few people who can work in the system. I have and do succeed to a point myself, but the full fledged thing of our hearts imagining is gone. That hurts. And it’s irreplaceable. This isn’t like finding a new spouse or job – we believed that there were some certainties in life. That certain actions were required by God to become his. We wanted to be His, to be accepted, to be found of worth, to be on his team as Elder Holland says. Now we are not sure if there is a team, if so what are the rules, last of all we don’t want to be left out or be trouble makers, but no one knows what to do with us. They just want us to go back and be who we were. Believe me I would if I could.
Though I have learned a lot and appreciate the insight, I am tired, weary, heartbroken, lonely, and in pain. Presently – no answer is available. I have a disease that has no cure. That’s what makes me angry.
I know I’ve double posted, but I have last thought, I think the part that really drives my anger is there is a solution to the pain. The solutions aren’t hard, and yet, the solutions aren’t happening. I do see efforts toward solutions, but for the length of time some of these issues have been available, and the breadth of awareness that is available – there could be some solid efforts to stem the tide, and bridge the gaps, without losing more. That really gets me going. I actually worry about who is going to have this happen to them next. I don’t wish this on anybody. I try diligently to keep it to myself because I know it is painful, long, and devastating. I have no wish to give it or share it with anyone. I’ve been on both sides of the road, and if you are happy on the traditional side, I want you to remain functioning and happy. This journey robs so many people of functioning – it is astonishing.
In the medical world we look for solutions, we try therapies, we take case studies, we explore ideas. In the LDS faith, we don’t. So we keep hurting, our families hurt, and the next person who falls gets hurt.
I believe that anger that accompanies a faith crisis/faith transition in the LDS church is very similar to the anger/resentment that accompanies a faith crisis/transition as a Jehovah’s Witness…and for many of the same reasons. Roy wrote:I believe that anger that accompanies a faith crisis/faith transition in the LDS church is very similar to the anger/resentment that accompanies a faith crisis/transition as a Jehovah’s Witness…and for many of the same reasons.
Yes, even outside of religion itself, it has been well documented, the leaving or betrayal of a spouse, close friend, years or decades at work. The base feelings are largely the same and universal.
People just don’t like to be treated like that in any setting.
It just so happens that we use the excuse “that god days so”. Which is nothing more interpreted by our inner brains as the excuse or reason of “because” or “just because”.
It doesn’t even matter if it is or a person believes it is true. It will hurt and cause anger, fear, doubt, betrayal, depression then anger. It is a fairly universal process that no explanation makes to go away, so giving a explanation is rather futile in long term.
One most first accept the reality of their collapsed world view if they are to move forward. Much like the AA process. Then work with their new world view and experiences and learn to be comfortable with them and at ease and peace.
They are what they are and pretending you didn’t have them only serves to entrench yourself further in despair and depression and anxiety which turns to anger. Letting go of the as unitive world view is very painful weather it is religious or work or family or society related the process and the emotions are similar , and so is the cure.
Someone moves a great distance and invests in lots of ways for a new job. They do a good job but are laid off “due to budget reasons” after a relatively short time. They are angry at the unforeseen, undesired change and the people / organization that caused it. Anger is a natural emotion in any situation where reality diverges from expectation. The key is NOT to avoid anger; the key is to work through it and let go – since continued anger becomes cancerous, and cancer sucks even when it doesn’t kill.
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