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Not sure how to introduce myself. Lifelong member of the church. served a mission, married in the Temple. Served in Bishoprics and callings in the Stake. Married almost 20 years with five children. My faith crisis started about a decade ago. As I started to ask questions, I was met with a brick wall that had teeth….divorce was threatened among other obstacles that condemned my questions. So I kept my questions to myself…but I needed to know and kept on asking questions and kept on studying. My faith in the Church was strong and I believed that “truth would withstand scrutiny” but the doubts rose and my testimony eventually was cracked. So here I am, not wanting to leave the Church…realizing that the origins of the Church and the Book of Mormon are a lot messier than we’ve been taught. Yet feeling that I won’t be allowed to be a member in full fellowship unless I fully accept the party line…and while I love and support the church and want to be a part of it and wish that things were really not that messy….I can’t just pretend that all of this “stuff” doesn’t exist either. So here I am… Galileo wrote:…My faith in the Church was strong and I believed that “truth would withstand scrutiny”…
If I had a dime for every time I heard that line… I felt much the same. Welcome!Quote:feeling that I won’t be allowed to be a member in full fellowship unless I fully accept the party line
Fwiw, I am a member in full fellowship and don’t “fully accept the party line” – and I know personally of hundreds of other members who fit that description perfectly. I just don’t make huge waves or try to convert others to my way of thinking. I’m not a threat in any way, and I actively try to help the Church and members in any way I can.
That is the key, in my experience.
Welcome. Heliocentric or not. Welcome to the forum. Is the risk of divorce still there? That’s a tough cloud over you if so. Although Ray’s our treasured trophy boy for unconventional, it’s probably fair to say that some families and wards aren’t quite so accommodating.
Hope you’re able to work through some of your questions and concerns here.
Welcome to the club my friend. We are similar yet different. Uchtdorf tells us to question is good. Believe it. Wives have been raised in the church to believe to have a husband drop out is to lose the family for eternity. So be patient and understanding.
There are few here who believe all that the church professes directly. Some might call us cafeteria mormons. So be it. I prefer to think we are using the same ingredients to make a something a that is a bit more palatable to us.
I liken the faith crisis to being like finding out the foundation to your home is failing. Some choose to demolish the home then leave for a new property or demolish the home and build something different. I think most of us here believe the house is worth saving…so with time and effort the foundation can be replaced with new material…it can be done and your home can remain in tact…there may be a few cracks in the plaster but nothing that can’t be fixed.
God Bless
JohnH
Quote:Yet feeling that I won’t be allowed to be a member in full fellowship unless I fully accept the party line…and while I love and support the church and want to be a part of it and wish that things were really not that messy….I can’t just pretend that all of this “stuff” doesn’t exist either.
I keep having 2 thoughts:
1 – all this sounds just like when a teenager first starts to see the flaws in their parent. That’s an important and absolutely necessary part of growing up.
2 – the person with the most awareness has the most responsibility in the situation. Guess who that isn’t? Unfortunately, it’s often the questioner who needs to take the high road. The questioner has higher awareness than a person who has never asked questions or who finds questions threatening.
SamBee wrote:Welcome. Heliocentric or not.
+1 loved this.
thanks everyone for the welcome. eman…I loved your comment about “If I had a dime….” and as cliche and trite as that saying (“truth will withstand scrutiny) might be…it was so true for me. I started out on this journey alone…unaware that so many others were walking similar paths… But those phrases are so ingrained into as as youth growing up in the church. Stand up for the Truth! Testify of Truth! and on and on…my LDS upbringing made me passionate for truth…that now that I have been initiated into the world of Mormon Stories, NOM, StayLDS, FacesEast and so many other groups….I am not at all suprised to hear those same phrases over and over again. It is how we were raised. Honesty, integrity, omitting something is the same as lying. It is part of our DNA as LDS. Who knew that such deeply engrained teachings would actually turn on itself once we started looking under the hood in earnest.
Ray, I am like you from the standpoint is that I have no desire to destroy anyone’s faith with my questions. I think a lot of this stuff has no place at church because to me church is a time to worship and build faith, not engage in academic debate. I believe everyone should have the choice of choosing the blue pill over the red pill. (Matrix reference) I’m a red pill man myself, but not everyone is that way. I just wish that red pill people were not viewed as outcasts and apostates. The culture of the church can be quite cruel to those who sincerely question and I have a problem with that.
mackay11. Thanks so much for your empathy. The divorce cloud over issues with the Church hung over me for a long time. WE came close. But that risk is no longer there thank heavens. My wife’s position has changed and we are now far more able to talk about these issues and all matters related to faith more easily. But to be honest, I thought I would be in divorce proceedings by now. She has changed tremendously in a short period of time.
Johnh. thanks for your welcome. Ucthodorf’s quote on questioning is one that I love and often pull out among my TBM friends. The question about whether the house is worth saving is actually not as important to me personally. Why? Because I really have very little or no say on how the house is built. But I love all the people in the house. As much as I see the problems with the house…it has been my home my whole life…it’t not quite that easy to leave. At least not for me. If I can still do something good, I will. But I will no longer pretend that there aren’t problems either.
Hawkgrrl…you are absolutely right.
Glad to hear divorce isn’t hanging over you as much. Hope it works out. Galileo, welcome. I hope it works out with your wife. My wife and I have an truce in which we support each other but don’t try in any way to change each other’s minds. Galileo Galilei is one of my scientist heros.
Roadrunner wrote:
Galileo Galilei is one of my scientist heros.Plus a line from one of my favourite Queen songs…
Magnifico. Galileo, your words are like they came from my own mouth. I have the same issues, background, and have come to the same conclusions. It’s good to have brothers in the same boat. I love hawkgrrrl’s response — it’s right on point. I think it is possible to be a faithful non-believer. I personally admire Sterling McMurrin, who absolutely loved the church and enjoyed being part of it but didn’t believe in the least. That, to me, is one extreme of a faithful non-believer. Others as well have forged this path.
What’s really interesting is that the words ‘believe’ or ‘belief’ do not appear in the
temple recommend questionsSo, if belief is not required, what is? Faith and testimony. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things, therefore if we have faith, we hope for things that are not seen, but are indeed true. In other words, faith distinguishes itself from belief because it recognizes we don’t know. Testimony is our personal witness of why we hope for something. There is a huge difference between faith/testimony and belief. As we come to learn that difference, we can see that as Alma 32 teaches us to try things out, to test the things we hold in faith, suspending BOTH disbbelief as well as belief, we can come to a more sure knowledge of what we can hold to be true.
It’s not easy to explain this quickly, but there are a few things I hold true:
1. You don’t need to ‘believe’ the traditional definitions of things to hold a Temple Recommend. We all have a different view of what is true. We have explored on this forum each of the temple recommend questions, and the summary of these can be accessed
here2. You don’t have to believe or have faith in something that isn’t true. If the book of mormon isn’t historical, you don’t have to believe or have faith in the historicity of the book of mormon. But let me ask you a question — have you felt good about the Book of Mormon? If you have, then it is ‘true’ in a very different way than historical: it is of normative value to you, and you can so testify. Does the book of mormon testify of Christ? You bet it does — I can know this by reading it. So you see, the ‘truth’ of the book of mormon is not about history — it even says it isn’t historical — at least the small plates weren’t. But we can ‘know’ that the book is true for us, normatively, valuatively, and spiritually. What else matters?
3. You don’t have to believe every word that comes from the Prophet. Yes, I know that there are some very unfortunate statements, like, “The prophet will never lead the church astray”, or the entire 14 fundamentals talk. Well, guess what? When Wilford Woodruff was publically saying they weren’t practicing polygamy in the very same statement that started this “prophet will never lead the church astray” business, he was privately approving of the practice continuing for at least another 14 years. You’ve got to realize that not everything in Zion is perfect….
4. Prophets aren’t perfect. none of them. never were. never will be. In fact, the glorious ‘truth’ of the church and gospel is that imperfect beings can reveal and do marvellous things — among a few really big mistakes as well.
So…welcome to what I call the
Middle Way
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