Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

[Anonymous]

All fantastic advice…

I especially liked what Ray said (not sure about the delivery). This journey is about you. It’s not about her. If you’re being open and honest, you will probably be saying “I’m just not sure”, “I don’t know right now”, “I just don’t feel that way”. You don’t have to convince her intellectually that you’re making intellectual decisions. Your thought processes will never match hers.

Trying to seek validation from her is too dangerous. It’s a life-long cycle that leads to life-long internal anguish and emotional brokenness. Trust me, I have two parents and two in-laws who are exhibit 1 and 1A.

You take care of you. She can take care of herself. If taking care of herself means she can’t be with you… so be it. I think if you demonstrate healthy emotional boundaries by not reacting to her reactions, she will feel the calming influence of ambiguity. Certainty comes from fear. So, if you attempt to challenge her certainty, it becomes fight-or-flight: both bad options.

Based on your comments, it sounds like you’ve simply become open to lots of possibilities: you’ve let go of certainty. So, play fair. You’re uncertain about the “truth”, let her be certain about the “truth”. There’s nothing wrong with not knowing. It’s not a character defect. It’s a part of life. If you have the patience and inclination, study thoroughly Fowler’s stages of faith as a reference to what you’re going through. And, study co-dependency as a reference for how you should best approach any relationship, especially a marital one.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

One of the most reviled quotes of modern Mormonism on anti-sites and group discussion boards for disaffected members is Elder Packer’s about not all truth being useful. (my paraphrase) I understand the angst that causes among those who want everything to be black-and-white, but it is absolutely true and wise in many situations – and what you describe is one of those times.

I’m probably beating a dead horse, but I really wish everyone understood that President Packer was paraphrasing Immanuel Kant, the world-renowned philosopher. At the same time he’s questioning intellectuals, which I just can’t think as purely coincidental…

“Many things can be true and yet harmful to man. Not all truth is useful.”

— Immanuel Kant

(p.43 Lectures on Logic, (translated by J. Michael Young))

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

Thank you HiJolly! I never knew that – learned something today!

Let me apologize as I derail… but it has always struck me that all truth may not be useful for any singular purpose or agenda. But, as I hold God, or at least the qualities of God, to be the author of all truth (I think LDS.org has a quote to the same effect) it appears to my sensibilities that there is probably some valuable lesson in all forms of truth.

Where may I be going wrong with that line of thought? (I’m looking for points that I may be missing.)

In this case we may assume, and we may be right, that the GF has no interest or perhaps not the ability to digest some of the “information” related to Scotty’s true thought process. Shouldn’t she have some right to decide for herself what she wants to know and what she wants to ignore about him?

Is it possible to inhibit another person’s agency by exercising some control over the “truths” that reach them? I realize this is a complex and sticky subject.

Just asking.

[Anonymous]

I like Swim’s advice:

swimordie wrote:

So, play fair. You’re uncertain about the “truth”, let her be certain about the “truth”. There’s nothing wrong with not knowing. It’s not a character defect. It’s a part of life.

On a practical note, I think most TBMs have expectations that need to be considered, and is the purpose of courting someone before committing to a major thing, like marriage. Make sure you understand her expectations in life and if you can meet those for her (in church matters or non-church matters).

Be yourself and let her see yourself (even if you are trying to show your best self for her). If you have doubts or skip church periodically, does that bother her? If you read something about the church that makes you wonder, does she have advice for you on it?

There will always be things you inevitably find out about your spouse after you get married, and there are no guarantees you or your partner don’t change after marriage. So find out as much as you can before marriage.

But you should be able to establish if you two have the capacity to work through trials and situations together and still love each other. That requires honesty, integrity, and communication.

Regardless if the issues are faith in the church, money management, sex and children, or chores around the house…relationships are built on how you openly address issues and trust each other you can come to a shared understanding of things. Especially for TBMs, religion carries an eternal ramification on the entire family unit…so it is not a small matter to brush aside.

Do not bury this. Nor do I think you just give up on the relationship over it. Face the facts, test the relationship, and see where it takes you.

That’s advice from an old 40 yr old with 4 kids…so take it for what its worth.

[Anonymous]

This is an interesting question. Scotty, I think fortune or God or someone or something smiled on you in the form of GF’s old high school friend.

First, if you are accurate in the retelling of the incident, your GF did NOT answer your question, (“Why did you want me to read that?”). If she really didn’t answer the question, WHY didn’t she answer the question?

One possibility is that she’s been concerned about your TBM status or committment to the church, since you’ve probably already said some things that make her wonder, and showing you the blog post may have been designed to gauge your reaction or show you how silly it is to question or wonder. However, if that was the case, she sure didn’t give you much of a chance to express opinions and slamed that door pretty certainly. So, if she does suspect and is concerned, she really doesn’t want to know the answer. If that’s the case, she might not be the girl you’d be happy with for years on end.

Another possibility as to why she didn’t answer the question is that she has the same or similar concerns as her old HS friend and wanted some reassurance from you that all is okay in the world. If that’s the case, she obviously didn’t give you time to answer at that moment, but would probably be receptive to an open and honest conversation.

Finally, maybe she really didn’t have a clear reason of sharing the friend’s post with you, other than you’re her BF and you two share stuff like friends do. If that’s the case, thank heaven for an opportunity to discuss these things.

I think, whatever the answer to your unanswered question, you now have a better opportunity to discuss some things that you really want to discuss with her. I agree with most everyone that it’s not a good idea to dump all the questionable church history on her lap at once, but I also feel that it’s a terrible idea to go into a marriage with doubts about who your partner is. Obviously, no one knows for sure, going into marriage, whether or not it’s going to work out, whether or not you’re going to be deliriously happy, or whether or not you’re going to be very compatible for years on end, but what you want to be damned sure about is that you know who you are marrying and that you still WANT to do it.

I realize you’re not even engaged at this point, but there is an obvious possibility. If it does progress to that point, I think any pre-marriage counselor would tell you that you have to be honest with yourself and with her. Realize that your ideas and thoughts on this subject will likely still change somewhat as you continue to age… change is inevitable, as they say, though obviously expecting or waiting for someone else to change isn’t productive. Thanks to the old HS friend, the door to this discussion has been opened a little bit. If GF only slams that door when you attempt to talk about it, then I say, buddy, you’re a fool to marry her for more reasons than one (but hey, maybe she’s so wonderful in other ways it would still be worth it). If she’s open to conversation and will consider other opinions and respect yours, then you’ve got a keeper and would probably be a fool to let her go (though, she might let you go, and there’s nothing you can do about that).

You’ll have to talk about this and you know it. You obviously don’t want to hurt her, but avoiding the issue and continuing to develop the relationship toward marriage could potentially hurt her much worse later. I completely agree with others who have cautioned you not to try and “convert” her to your new way of thinking, or your “NOMism”. Just open up your heart and thoughts to her, like you’ve probably been doing as the relationship has developed. Sharing can be scary business because you might be out a GF the next day. But, it might also bring you closer than you’ve ever been before.

[Anonymous]

I don’t remember where I read this, but it’s some of the best advice I’ve heard in awhile: we would be well-served to remember that at some level, all marriages are interfaith marriages. No two people will have exactly the same religious beliefs, even if they both belong to the same church. I don’t know if this is what the OP was looking for (probably not), but I hope someone finds it as useful as I have.

[Anonymous]

All really good comments. I’m going to share with you the point of view from someone who has recently had a husband share his “findings” with me. In all honesty I would not have married my husband had he had these views before we got married. Having said that, I don’t think he would have been the same man had he had those points of view back then. You have to ask the question does my girlfriend know who I am or just who I am pretending to be (that’s not to indicate that you are doing it on purpose). If it is the latter then that is who she has fallen in love with, not the real you. The reason I married my husband is because I could see him being the husband and father I desired. Someone who could give priesthood blessings to our children when they were sick, someone who would see FHE as important… It might be helpful for you to find out what is really important to her and if you can still provide that. The situation is much different when a couple has had time to build a foundation together, hence the reason why DH and I are dealing with our situation so well. Please don’t take this the wrong way but no matter how much you love your girlfriend the foundation of your relationship is not developed, that takes time and work, a lot of time and a lot of work. Two people with different points of view on major issues would have a very difficult time building a firm foundation. So I agree with some of the other comments that you both need to be on the same page, either you need to follow her or she needs to follow you (to a comfortable level) or you both need to go your separate ways.

[Anonymous]

Hey there, Scotty. Thanks for sharing your story and best of luck on your journey. I am unmarried and also 23 years old. I was in a mixed-faith relationship (and discussing marriage) for some time. I was feeling ambiguous in regards to the church and Silas was fully out of the church. So, not quite the same. Still, it creates a difficult element in the relationship around the question of religion. It was pointed out to me post-break up that the religious distance between ambivalent me and a post-mo or me and a TBM is potentially very similar, just in opposite directions. Which is to say that I personally haven’t ruled out dating TBMs, and I don’t think that you sharing your thoughts with GF is necessarily a death knell to the relationship.

As to how to handle the conversation… Make sure to include the things that you appreciate about the church. Be gentle. Take a break and continue the conversation later if one of you start to get angry or feel overwhelmed. Reassure her of your love.

[Author]

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