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DarkJedi wrote:
This is a doctrinal gray area, but it is my understanding that the sealing is not actually “broken” by excommunication, rather it is put on hold.
DJ is probably correct, he usually is. To me a local leader evening putting an eternal ordinance on hold doesn’t feel right. The BofM talks about the sealing power being a big deal. So does Joseph Smith, to the point of saying wayward children are still tied to their parents. Using more mundane reasoning, most lower courts don’t put rulings of a higher court on hold and in the military if you say “belay that order” you could find yourself in a heap of trouble.
From an administrative standpoint it would be impossible for GAs to decide all excommunications. But doctrinally, and given the supposed eternal nature of sealings, I don’t get it. I do admit that my position opens a can of worms, because even an everyday sealing starts to sound like a 2nd anointing if they can’t be nullified.
mom3 wrote:Apostasy is big, so many strings attached, shouldn’t the people at the top be directly involved?
I think I’m aligned with mom3 about this. So you all know, I am biased. My mother was excommunicated when she was 16 in the 1970’s because of having a child out of wedlock (me) and she thinks of it as an act of violence. She was forcibly removed from her eternal family (parents and siblings), although she doesn’t seem to care because she’s atheist at this point. She believes she was “exed” out of a desire to be taught who was in charge. There is no doubt she was a rebellious snot who made bad decisions, but I’m not sure she deserved to be removed from her family, even if temporarily and figuratively.
If sealing multiple dead spouses to a living spouse regardless of number or gender is regarded as “we’ll figure it out in the millennium” it seems like the consistent policy is to treat sealing cancellations or nullifications the same way.
Thanks for sharing that Roadrunner. Personal experiences like that certainly make things more authentic and more meaningful. You have altered my perspective a bit. We also have a little more in common that I previously knew – I was also a bastard child, although my mother was not a member of the church. There were still social/cultural implications because I’m older than you. A speaker in sacrament yesterday talked about an experience she had when her family was converted. She was the only one in the family younger than 8, so everybody else was being baptized and she wasn’t, but she didn’t know why not. Was there something wrong or different about her? Was she not really a part of the family? She had a myriad of thoughts and she convinced herself some of these things were true, although she later realized they were only her perception at the time. I’m not sure how anyone else in the room felt, but this experience touched me. I thought about the kid of a single parent in Primary or YM/YW being taught that in order to enter the highest level of the celestial kingdom and really be a forever family they would have to have sealed parents. What does that kid think? That she or he is not good enough because his or her parents are not married? Is the CK unattainable? Is God really fair?
I’ve sat on disciplinary councils at both the ward and stake level.While only a couple ended in excommunication (both for apostasy, interestingly, but they really were apostate), I don’t ever recall us discussing the “eternal” impact besides the “loss of blessings.” Nor did we discuss the impacts on others. In the excommunication cases one of the guys was divorced but still sealed. He was a former bishop and has made no effort at returning to the fold. He ex wife is active as are two of the five children, interestingly the older ones. I recall one of the younger (now inactive) ones asking in a class about eternal marriage one time “What if that’s not what you want?”
I know I rambled, I’m just throwing out some food for thought.
Thank you Roadrunner and DJ for your input. Even after days of mulling I really am still convinced the church might want to rethink the hows, why’s, and how-to’s for Apostasy Excommunications. I really am uncomfortable with some the unknown and misunderstood affects it has. A different perspective that seems important to me is that excommunication for apostasy is supposed to be rehabilitative, not punitive, if not entirely then primarily. And local leadership is going to have more insight into the individual’s situation than any GA would. It’s not like the GAs really have magical x-ray vision about this stuff. My local bishop knows my situation better than anyone at the 70 level, for example, knows me from seeing me with my family & ward members, having personal conversations with me, etc. Kate, unfortunately, didn’t really have any relationship with her local leaders, despite being a believer. John has historically had a great relationship, and they will need to do (their obligation is such) whatever they think will ultimately bring him back into the fold. Flawed people in a flawed community trying their best to help one another. hawkgrrrl wrote:It’s not like the GAs really have magical x-ray vision about this stuff.
😯 What?😯 You have popped my mental bubble! I bet you loved telling you kids there is no Santa!!!😆 DarkJedi wrote:
This is a doctrinal gray area, but it is my understanding that the sealing is not actually “broken” by excommunication, rather it is put on hold. I believe it’s viewed much the same as if we were unrepentant (because we all know we don’t get any blessings unless we’re trying to be perfectly obedient😈 ) and therefore “unworthy” of the blessing in our Patriarchal Blessing, temple blessings, etc. When one is rebaptized and gets a restoration of blessings, there is no re-ordination, re-endowment, or re-sealing – it’s all restored by one ordinance.My wife wrestled with this when she cancelled her sealing to her first husband so we could be sealed. If on the off chance he returned to the church, his sealing to their children would be restored and her’s to the children would be cancelled. It’s not likely he’d come back but it did give her pause. As far as excommunication for apostasy goes, being known by your bishop and SP to have a good heart is not likely going to do much for you if you’re not willing to back down on what you’ve been preaching or teaching or retract anything published.
Quote:Flawed people in a flawed community trying their best to help one another.
This. Exactly this.
It applies to us here at this site, as well.
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