Are My LDS Days Numbered?

[Anonymous]

Sorry, this is kind of long. Read at your own risk!

I just want to say how grateful I am for the many thoughtful responses to my post. This is the only Church-related place where I am completely “out”. When I read the many postings of all of you on StayLDS, I realized it was filled with people I could trust with this very personal, often painful part of myself. Thank you all.

Over the past months, I have slowly begun to realize that I need to put some distance between myself and traditional forms and expectations of the active LDS community. There is a belief in the Church that only complete participation is OK: e.g., attending all three hours of church, magnifying your calling(s), going to extra meetings, temple attendance, etc. In the past few weeks, I have freed myself from this belief. I just don’t think it accurately represents what God expects of us. Many people feel guilty if they miss any of church for legitimate reasons! There seems to be an “All the way in, or all the way out” mentality that doesn’t really allow for adaptation to personal circumstances very well. I just think Lord more understanding than that. Weekly 3-hour attendance just seems to be a legalistic requirement that can and should be amenable to thoughtful, prayerful, and ultimately individual agency and choice. I’m currently trying to build some emotional and intellectual boundaries with the Church.

There are plenty of things I find tiresome, boring, and inconvenient about LDS worship, but if a person is going to “stay”, eventually one has to face whether the positives can compensate for the negatives. I love the Sacrament. It is special to me. I enjoy singing the Sacrament hymn, pondering on the Last Supper and the events surrounding the Atonement, death, crucifixion, and resurrection of the Lord. I feel the Spirit strongly then. I have several people that I am genuinely happy to see at Church. I no longer “learn” anything intellectual at church. I suppose one of the real benefits of the three hour meetings on Sunday is the proximity it places between the Saints—opportunities for promptings to serve and be served. There are plenty of opportunities for me to learn to apply the Gospel, rather than just learning about it. I love to teach, and I would be more than happy teaching every Sunday; although I would rather teach EQ than SS now. Given my current state of heretical belief, I’m not sure how possible that is. I do love the one-on-one teaching I can do. I enjoy the youth, and appreciate the mentoring I received from folks who are my parents’ age and grandparents’ age. I just really don’t like most of the talks, testimonies, and lessons that much right now.

Emotionally, I’m having a difficult time with the Church. Featherina asked me if I felt the Church was responsible for my past self-hatred and loathing RE: being same-sex attracted. My answer—it’s complicated, but in general, yes I do. Traditional Mormons rely heavily on the Brethren for their opinions and ways of thinking and speaking about many sensitive topics, including this one. After all, they speak for God, right? The words of the Brethren who have commented on homosexuality ring in the ears of the traditional believer—that it’s a crime against nature, that one must beat ones head against the door until it’s bruised and bloodied to repent, that it can be caused by mutual masturbation, that it’s OK to beat a homosexual up if he/she is coming on to you, that “We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity”—and worst of all, that “God would never do that to you.”

These are powerful beliefs that every homosexual in the Church internalizes. The only time homosexuality is mentioned is in the context of its threat to traditional marriage, and how it is “destroying society.” Imagine you are a sensitive young person who knows he/she is attracted to the same sex, who wants to be righteous and good, and who hears all of these things growing up. How can this person not learn to loathe him/herself? A homosexual is tacitly taught to believe that they themselves are a crime against nature, that if they tell anyone, they are in danger of being despised, rejected, and beaten up, and that they will only be loved and accepted by the Church if they can change their sexual orientation. I have a right to be angry at the Church for making me believe this for most of my life, and that I could only be acceptable if I could change. The Church is now making a distinction between attractions and behavior. The conversation is changing, but the damage is already done for me and my poor inner child.

When I go to Church, I face constant talk about families, which I am not allowed to have, and occasional overzealous parroting of incorrect ideas about myself and others like me. I need some emotional space to feel better about myself. I also need space away from the guilt trips. I have been so well manipulated by guilt trips to do things for the Church, that I still have trouble maintaining proper emotional boundaries when the guilt tripping begins.

I’m going to give myself permission to only go to as much Sacrament as I feel comfortable with. I will have to chat with my EQP about what to do RE: my Elder’s Quorum attendance (since I am the second counselor). We’ll see how this goes. I’m still on the verge of self-loathing and guilt, and the smallest hint of trouble at Church can tip me over into weeks of shame spirals and depression. I need some space to construct the emotional boundaries I will need to Stay LDS. I’m going to inform my bishop and my home teacher about my decision, and to ask them to gently keep their finger on the pulse for me. They’re good enough guys that I know they will love me and respect my boundaries.

[Anonymous]

I support your approach, T. And I respect you for it.

Perhaps this is what God is providing you opportunities to learn about.

I wouldn’t expect it will all go smooth as you figure out the boundaries, but eventually, I think you’ll get there. Good luck! Keep us posted.

[Anonymous]

i am so with you… except for one thing: stop the self loathing and guilt. trust me on this: you are loved.

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

i am so with you… except for one thing: stop the self loathing and guilt. trust me on this: you are loved.

Yep.

Hang in there T.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

[Anonymous]

Hi Turinturinbar,

I’m glad to hear your spirits up a little, although I agree with others- that you need to stop hating yourself.

What does it help to hate yourself?

I think it’s important, especially in cases of feelings of self-hate, to realize the illusional aspects and to consider multiple possible perspectives.

Did you ever have times when you felt on top of the world?

I have – nothing anybody could say could bother me because I realized a higher perspective, either through insane laughter or just feeling really good.

Times like that might be illusional as well (limited in awareness) but at least some of that is necessary to feel good enough to live well.

I’ve realized that everything I think is limited & thus illusional, so I might as well pick illusions that work for, rather than against, me.

I think it’s a balance between exploring all possibilities (truth)… and embracing “functional illusions” that motivate in healthy ways.

So, it might be helpful to consider more of why you are so bothered by what others’ (esp. GA & those who worship their words) say.

There are many cognitive distortions brought up in church… some are faith-promoting & some are not.

But when it is personal, it hurts more.

turinturambar wrote:

The words of the Brethren who have commented on homosexuality ring in the ears of the traditional believer—that it’s a crime against nature, that one must beat ones head against the door until it’s bruised and bloodied to repent, that it can be caused by mutual masturbation, that it’s OK to beat a homosexual up if he/she is coming on to you, that “We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity”—and worst of all, that “God would never do that to you.”

These are powerful beliefs that every homosexual in the Church internalizes. The only time homosexuality is mentioned is in the context of its threat to traditional marriage, and how it is “destroying society.”

In your mind, it has felt as if the GA has said that same-sex attraction is a “crime against nature & that one must beat ones head against the door until it’s bruised and bloodied to repent, that it can be caused by mutual masturbation, that it’s OK to beat a homosexual up if he/she is coming on to you”.

They have never stated this, but you have interpreted it this way, as hatred and thus have developed hatred for yourself.

I do this sometimes too… like somebody will say a comment with a certain look on their face and I’ll invent a story in my mind of how they hate me.

Who knows- maybe they really do hate me, but how do I know for sure – & what does it matter anyway? Any president is disliked by about 1/2 the population.

Beneath all of this, for me at least, are a few incorrect beliefs that cause incorrect self-hatred…

1. I base my value on my perception of what others are thinking, as if they are gods (when really my value is independent of what others are thinking & they are not gods)

2. I am not a mind reader, so my perception is very limited and often not true (especially when it comes to judging other’s internal thought processes)

3. Deep down, I feel that there is something majorly wrong with me and thus I am looking for validation of this belief (really, we all have weaknesses and it’s a good thing so we can be humble & learn etc… the heart of all of us is a child of God and good)

Turinturinbar, I was thinking about you in relation to a post I read on another forum.

The main reason why I asked if you had dated men before is because sometimes the grass seems greener on the side we’ve never been on.

This guy explained how he’d dated many men and then realized it wasn’t what he thought & wasn’t what he wanted and decided he wanted to change his sexual preference. He wanted some resources that were non-religious because his motivation for changing sexual preference was non-religious. Here’s part of what he wrote:

Quote:

I’m a gay male and don’t want to be. It has nothing to do with religion, God, Jesus, sins, all that nonsense. I have a list of reasons…

Anyway, the ex-gay ministries out there are only religious. I don’t want that. I don’t care about Christ or the Bible teachings. I just want to be a straight atheist. The few friends I do have are almost all straight atheists. They’re the best people I’ve ever met…

So, is there any way to make myself straight while still not caring about religion? I just want to fit into society better, not feel ashamed/embarassed about myself, meet and date decent people, etc. Thanks for reading.

Unfortunately, for insisting on his desire to change sexual preferences, he was met with a lot of personal attacks from others. Yet, he responded with more composure and maturity, which was impressive. It does seem as he suggested, that most support groups for ex-homoseuxals are religious. Yet, there are non-religious reasons for exploring and ultimately limiting (not necessarily completely eliminating) homosexual thoughts and feelings.

“Dr. Nicolosi has produced a clearly written, scholarly book that covers the developmental, physiological, social-psychological, familial, interpersonal, and gender identity aspects of male homosexuality. Although the influence of mothers in the developmental and adaptive process is given its importance, the more compelling role of an inadequate father-son relationship in a boy’s subsequent homosexuality is again corroborated and becomes a salient theme in reparative therapy. “It has become unpopular to propose that homosexuality is the consequence of a disturbed boyhood and that reversal to heterosexuality through psychotherapy is possible. Influenced only by what the clients were telling him, the author offers a rich harvest of observations that justifies the reparative treatment he describes.” http://narth.com/docs/repair.html

Truth is in perspective, the more perspectives, the more truthful.

We are so complex… even in our physiology alone (endocrine, cardio, respiratory, muscular, lymphatic, nervous system etc.)… then there is also our psychology – our thought patterns that affect emotions which affect physiology, our choices every-day about diet/exercise/sleep. Interpersonal relationships also affect us a lot, including family, friends, GA/clergy, etc.

I believe genuine healing is considering the whole – all of it.

It may seem like more work, like chess, considering multiple affects simultaneously – but it is the way out of self-hate and toward self-love.

Turinturinbar, you have been in my thoughts and prayers lately.

I hope you feel love in your heart and that things work out for you.

I appreciated your comments about what you resonate with in church/sacrament meeting and in serving.

I also see church as a convenient way to put principles of love and service into practice.

I sense you have a lot of good in your heart – & many ways to make this world a better place.

[Anonymous]

turinturnambar has stated multiple times on this site that he went through years of attempting to change his sexual orientation and that it is impossible. That is not a “solution” for him, and, given his request for input on any viable solutions and coping mechanisms, any further suggestions about changing his sexual orientation will be deleted.

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

i am so with you… except for one thing: stop the self loathing and guilt. trust me on this: you are loved.

^^This

I admire you for your commitment to do everything you can for the church, even through all the pain and difficulties it entails.

There is a story in the New Testament about the man born blind and Jesus was asked whose fault it was. Jesus responds that it is no one’s fault, but that the “works of God can be made manifest in him”. The people saw the blind man as someone born with a disability because of a sin. Jesus saw him as an significant person who needed love and service and who had an opportunity to help and inspire others.

We are all born with different gifts and challenges, but we all need love, and we all need to give love.

Please know that wherever you journey takes you that here is a small group of people here that admire and care about you.

[Anonymous]

Hi T,

I respect your conclusion and concur that whatever it is going to take for you to have a complete, whole, and well adjusted life is what I believe God would want you to do.

turinturambar wrote:

Over the past months, I have slowly begun to realize that I need to put some distance between myself and traditional forms and expectations of the active LDS community. There is a belief in the Church that only complete participation is OK: e.g., attending all three hours of church, magnifying your calling(s), going to extra meetings, temple attendance, etc. In the past few weeks, I have freed myself from this belief. I just don’t think it accurately represents what God expects of us. Many people feel guilty if they miss any of church for legitimate reasons! There seems to be an “All the way in, or all the way out” mentality that doesn’t really allow for adaptation to personal circumstances very well. I just think Lord more understanding than that. Weekly 3-hour attendance just seems to be a legalistic requirement that can and should be amenable to thoughtful, prayerful, and ultimately individual agency and choice. I’m currently trying to build some emotional and intellectual boundaries with the Church.

I have found the same. I currently work on Sundays at the direction of my boss. I still have a significant latitude of flexibility that allows me to take a break in the middle of my work day for Sacrament meeting. Theoretically I might be able to push the boundaries of that flexibility to attend the entire 3 hour block and then return to work until late in the evening. I have been asked about my arrangement from 2 different people, the EQP and a member of the bishopric. I answered that I arrange for my attendance at sacrament meeting because DW and I both feel that it is important for us to sit as a family during that meeting.

The member of the bishopric said something to the effect that he was glad to have me in attendance. The EQP seemed rather put off by my compromise solution. I expect that you might get the same diversity of responses.

As for the bigger issue in your life – Benji Schwimmer (SP) reported receiving a personal revelation that essentially released him from continuing his journey in the church. In essence, He was assured that he had gone/grown as far as he could in the church and was now given the blessing to take the step outside. When I think about your hardship, my mind keeps coming back to that.

I do believe that you are a unique and wonderful son of the divine and it pains me that you are in such anguish. I wish I had better answers or even suggestions. Sometimes in dealing with complex feelings an embrace can be more effective than words. Please accept this post as my internet ((HUG))… I wish it could be more.

Your friend,

Roy

[Author]

Posts